The actual skill level of Jim Braddock

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by klompton2, Aug 9, 2017.


  1. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If it's a close fight, the robbery becomes inappropriate. Braddock got the benefit of the doubt, perhaps...but he still closed well enough to put himself in position to be given the nod.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah.

    That snippet that Mendoza posted is from Boxrec; if you use it as a kick off, you Farr taking 4,5,6,7 and 8, Braddock taking 3,9 and 10.

    So if they share 1 and 2, say, that's a card of 6-4 Farr and my guess is this would have been about right. All that said, this is one paragraph reproduced by Boxrec and backed by highlights so it's hardly enough to make a serious stab at things (or start insisting the referee "did Braddock a favour"). In an era that permitted even rounds it takes very little to turn things around.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Looked at the highlights of round 3. The only warning the referee gives on the highlights is for Farr leading with the head. A shame if he lost the round for that. Then again, it looked like a very close round to me. Apart from 4 and 5 most of them do because it's that mauling, awkward type of fight.
     
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Tommy Farr (2)
    Max Baer (Ch.)
    Art Lasky (3)
    John Henry Lewis (4, LHW)
    Jimmy Slattery (4, LHW)
    Pete Latzo (10, LHW)

    The Farr fight and Lewis fight most people felt like he lost.
    The Baer fight was very close and made closer by point deductions, just like Farr and Lewis.
    Slattery was a bad drunk at the time he fought Braddock. That wasnt a secret or a revisionism it was in the papers of the day.
    Latzo was at his best at WW and like Braddock lost 1/3 of his fights, the vast majority of those losses came after he moved up from WW and frankly Im not convinced he was rated by any sanctioning body particularly when he fought Braddock. He was nothing more than a middling LHW.

    You are using Ring ratings and not just their ratings but their annual ratings which dont tell if a fighter was actually rated when that fight was held. The Ring was a magazine, not a sanctioning body.

    When you have to go to such lengths as to claim that winning several controversial decisions over rated fighters, several of whom were nothing special in order to paint Braddock as more than a journeyman it really ignores the weight of his actual record. I mean Latzo lost a third of his fights, Tommy Farr lost a third of his fights, more actually. Lasky was nothing special, Slattery was a drunk, etc. To ignore the context behind these "wins" and hold them up as proof that because Braddock "beat" six rated fighters in an 85 fight career that witnessed him fail to win 33 of those fights and three of those six "marquee" wins are controversial it kind of defies logic to pretend the guy was anything more than a damn lucky journeyman. His record of achievements is almost comically weak for a champion.

    You can give McAvoy the benefit of the doubt but its no secret he wasnt an impartial ref. Thats simply his history. Its easily traceable. Regardless, it does him no favors that he was twice instrumental in potentially altering the outcomes of two of Braddock's biggest wins.
     
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  5. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    On one hand, it's frustrating seeing Baer not being as aggressive as he could be. On the other hand, Braddock was nullifying his rushing attacks with hard punches from the very first round. He had him out timed from the jump. Braddock was a level behind Baer in focus for that fight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, that's true, and if someone wants to produce monthly rankings i'll certainly give them priority.

    I will say we are lucky here in that the annual rankings here were on several occasions for the month before the fight, though - that is the issue came out the month before.

    And they're far from perfect. That said, i'll take them over sanctioning body rankings as a guide to who was who in a given era.

    No lengths were gone to; all of this took about 3 minutes.

    I'll say that when you wrote "Could he show some skill at times? Absolutely. Itd be absurd to suggest otherwise. But my point was that he had weak fundamentals and was a very talented guy either in terms of his ability or physicality beyond having a big heart and toughness (two things which IMO are nothing to sneeze at and for which Ive given him full credit)" you probably summed up my position.

    But my position is based as much upon these results as it is upon what I see.

    So this is all we really disagree upon, that Braddock was a journeyman (in terms of appraising his career). He was ranked in four separate years, was the heavyweight champion of the world, and beat a handful of ranked men. That's enough to elevate a guy above journeyman status for me.
     
  7. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    We can agree on some of this stuff, disagree on others, but in regards to rankings I absolutely disagree, in this era in particular. The Ring, which was housed in MSG, was in the business of selling magazines and often acted as a promotional arm of East Coast promoters. Its ratings are every bit as flawed as modern ratings. Ive said before and Ill say it again, Nat Loubet himself told me Ring regularly rated fighters and featured fighters not on worth but as a means of selling magazines. Its often why you see oddball foreign fighters rated that had zero accomplishments. If they thought having a guys name in their magazine would sell in his hometown or country they would put it in. So no, at the time you wouldnt find better ratings than the NBA and Im not even sure they were regularly publishing their ratings this early. Between their own marketing motivations, their incestuous relationship with promoters, and ever present influence of the mob (which was exploding at this point) the Rings ratings were no better than anyone else and often worse.
     
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well they got flat out caught, and way later than this era. 70s from memory. But, yeah, the best of a horrible bunch is how i'd see it.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Farr always insisted he beat Braddock.
     
  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Braddock was definitely a grinder whose aesthetics weren't particularly pleasing, but in any video that I've seen, he's always had a knack for making some sort of contact with his opponent with his punches and looks off quite a few of the opponent's shots that come his way. Good jab, decent right land. Not the most refined guy, but not without skill, either.

    He likely wouldn't have been popular in other eras, but after watching guys like Rosi and Huck carve out reigns in weight classes that extend into the double digits, I don't think I'm prepared to completely dismiss him as a fighter based on aesthetic value or the lack thereof.
     
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  11. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Braddock is a complex case, because his record permits a wide range of interpretation.

    He was a legitimate light heavyweight challenger, who got clowned by Tommy Loughran.

    He was a legitimate heavyweight challenger, who beat Max Baer.

    Between that he was a journeyman, and serial loser, probably due to hand injuries.

    You get the occasional clue, that he was always destined to be something.

    Joe Louis consistently rated him among his best opponents, throughout his life.
     
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  13. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    His skills consisted of mostly arm punches against a jeering Max Baer?
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Nobody is successful at level for no reason.

    Always remember that!
     
  15. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Can you show me any examples of arm punches that produce the same audible impact as the punches Braddock lands here?
     
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