Discussion in 'Boxing Training' started by NEETzschean, Mar 22, 2021.
Yeah. Fedor was judo & combat sambo guy before turned to MMA.
"You're getting beat by a man with titties"
I used to do just boxing and was skinny fat, I’m toned now and I can add that the fat didn’t affect me at all, but I do feel a lot stronger now that I’m mainly muscle...obviously
"And if they die, there's more to feast on!"
Considering they die earlier than less fat people...
Well, usually obese ppl also does not train anything, not alone combat sports.
The same Fedor might looked " fat " but he definitely had trained a lot and really diligently and hard. Otherwise he had been beated up as pupp in russian judo and combat sambo competitions, not alone in mma fights.
He looked weak and emaciated to me. He would have been better off being fat and at least maintaining his muscle mass.
Height and reach alone without a good amount of weight don't mean much: Wilder at 215 wouldn't dominate Ruiz in the clinch, he would get dominated. Weight + height + reach + skill = monster in the clinch.
Fun fact: Dustin Nichols is one of the three opponents who didn't touch the canvas against Deontay Wilder.
I suspect even 250 lbs Wilder too no.
Ruiz and Fury currently are looks that most skilled in clinch fight in HW division's top.
Even more than Povetkin in his prime.
there are boxers, punchers, punchers - boxers , punchers - boxers - clinchers etc styles.
Wilder never was clincher style. He was most effective in range while had distance for movement, both hand and body, like from long till middle distance or a bit closer to lad his right.
Doesn't looks that he was interested to clinch with ppl and like this.
I suspect that Serge does believe that carrying some extra fat is beneficial for many fighters but his posts have a tongue-in-cheek quality to them and he's pushing back against the false but dominant, media-driven narrative that fat is inherently unhealthy and useless.
I agree it's a trade off: speed, agility and stamina (though this isn't as clear, for reasons I will come to) will suffer as wrestling ability, punch resistance (more shock absorption than muscle) punch power and psychological dynamics improve. But if you have a sufficiently large frame and high natural body fat % like Tyson Fury and you can carry an extra 10-20 pounds of fat without it slowing, rigidifying or compromising your stamina significantly, you should absolutely do it. For a smaller fighter whose style is based on speed, agility and keeping his distance while boxing like Usyk, extra fat or muscle would probably inhibit his performance. On the other hand, the natural middleweight James Toney wouldn't have been competitive at heavyweight without carrying an enormous amount of bodyfat. There are of course diminishing returns though: beyond a certain point the costs to one's speed, agility and stamina will be too great to justify the benefits. At the end of the day this is the heavyweight division though; top fighters in the lower weight categories always have a speed, agility and conditioning advantage but they get ragdolled and destroyed by significantly bigger, heavier men. The same principle applies in the heavyweight division and heavyweights effectively fight in a smaller ring because their height + reach + size is so much greater.
The reason why fat isn't necessarily bad for stamina is that it allows you to put huge physical and psychological pressure on your opponent in the clinch, especially when combined with a height and reach advantage that gives you greater leverage and allows you to wrap them up from a greater distance. Stamina isn't absolute: it's relative to one's opponent. It also prevents your opponent from tiring you out as much in the clinch. Being bigger than your opponent at the weigh in also compromises their clinching and puts more psychological pressure on them as heavyweights love to feel like the bigger man in the ring. A big guy with a six-pack will gas out far more quickly than a sumo wrestler in a clinching situation, even if he can run a far better marathon time. To take an even more extreme example, imagine a Kenyan marathon runner vs an enormous fat blob on the clinch. The Kenyan has a far better gas tank when he can work at his own pace but when he has to wrestle against a vastly bigger man, he gasses out almost immediately while the bigger man uses virtually no energy at all.
A guy like AJ is naturally 215 pounds; he's a natural sprinter who has to pump himself up with lots of weightlifting and PED's. Putting on and then maintaining 25-30 pounds of muscle must require a significant amount of time, energy and the possibility of injury with resistance training plus drugs and put a huge amount of pressure on his body, especially as he ages.
We're not going to agree on the psychological side of things but there can be no doubt that AJ's defeat to Ruiz was many times more humiliating than it would have been if Ruiz had had a six-pack, this can hugely damage one psychologically and greatly pile on the pressure, which most athletes do not respond well to. And it was far easier to underestimate Ruiz than say, Joseph Parker, even though they are on a similar level. When you are a supremely conditioned athlete, you must put a lot of emotional investment in how you look, narcissism and vanity are natural corollaries that do not affect fat athletes as much because they are not celebrated for their chiseled physiques. Being fat is correlated with being out of shape but with fat athletes this can be an illusion: Fedor and Cormier and two of the best mma fighters of all time, Yamashita is one of the best Judoka built like a sumo wrestler, every sumo wrestler is morbidly obese but highly conditioned. Even natural cruiserweight Ali put on body fat to act as a shock absorber and his chin significantly improved. People mistake fat for out of shape because the average fat guy (not fat athlete) is out of shape and they buy into the media cult of action movies and superheroes, all of which have perfectly chiseled bodies.
from a wellness point of view, it's stomach fat that gets people in trouble in later life, and it's usually there due to a lack of good cardio and poor eating habits, which are compounded by addictions to alcohol, cigarettes and drugs.
personally, i absolutely love having a very active lifestyle.
since mental and physical health are linked, being very active and educating yourself on nutrition are just the best investments you can make in your life.
if people actually put in the hard work to get in really good shape, exercise from that point onwards is simply a celebration of the work you've put in to reach that point - it stops being work, and becomes something you look forward to every day.
especially if i'm about to go run for an hour on a humid day, i'm just a kid in a candy store, and i cannot wait to get out there and enjoy the toil of the final 10 minutes especially.
This is a great analyses with intellectual rigor mucho appreciated!
I agree with most of it; I will highlight what I think is uncertain or incorrect.
1) A small quibble; The gas tank of a top Marathon runner absolutely dwarfs that of the blob.
Yes the former will tire much more quickly in a clinch due to the likewise absurd difference in size weight & strength.
But before his cardio goes, his muscles will be exhausted/reach momentary muscular failure because using even all his strength cannot get him anywhere.
2) A Sumo wrestler or anyone morbidly obese is not well conditioned.
You can say he is very well adapted & well conditioned for his sport. Very brief bursts of anaerobic activity.
It is not bias against fat to say this amount of body fat is very bad for your heart, puts other major organs under great stress, is correlated with high blood pressure, diabetes, & certain types of cancer.
3) Ali is not by any rational definition a natural CW.
Like most people he was naturally leaner when in his teens & in the first several years of his pro career when still in his early 20's.
But at his peak he was a very lean 210-215, & that is without having visibly big muscles.
In the 70's his muscle was redistributed to the upper body a bit, & had a little more doby fay-sometimes too much-but at 227 in Manilla was not heavy. Futch said he had "outgrown" Frazier.
You might argue that since some CWs can or do lose ~10% of their body weight then rehydrate this still covers most all fit versions of Ali.
I answer that just because in recent years, a small minority of the history of boxing, some CWs can use this artificial means to break 200, that does not mean the absurdity that everyone under say mid 220's when fairly lean is not a HW, lol!
4) Joshua is naturally leaner. And he could well have dabbled or heavily used PEDs.
Yet it is neither fair nor logical to assume he did absent evidence.
As a long time lifter & having read a good amount about natural potential, here is a worthy scale of natural potential that shows how he & so many boxers MIGHT be natural. Or of course they could be cheating like bandits. Plug in the bone structure formulas & pay particular attention to the measurements at 8-10% BF.
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5) It requires-except for a few genetically blessed who get this way with something like physical labor much time to build muscle, & much less effort & time to maintain it. Due to homeostasis.
Also the risk of injury, if done correctly, need not be huge.
While being lean but with a lot of muscle-up to a certain point, & without using PEDs-need not be a great strain on the body.
So a Ronnie Coleman who was under 6' likely under 5% BF & 300 lbs. would be unnatural & unhealthy even absent the PEDs.
And using them permits development beyond what tendons & ligaments to keep up with, hence more & sometimes crippling injuries.
But *if* AJ at 6' 6" stayed at his heaviest weight, I believe 254, at maybe at least 10% or so BF...
I do not know that would be unhealthy.
Just like if he never had much muscle & was well under 200...There are many ways to be healthy.
6) There is doubt-it is completely uncertain-that his defeat by Ruiz was "many times" more humiliating.
It likely was at least more embarrassing.
But we are not in his head, & the main reason he felt terribly was likely that he was expected to win!
Your argument about underestimating Ruiz based on fat is very likely applicable here.
7) Those MMA fighters are good examples. But given their muscle & frames, I'll bet you would admit that they are between 25-25% BF right?
Diminishing returns is an understatement; beyond a certain point it is bad for almost any sport to have too much fat.
Sumos are an exception, they have to at least be able to move under their pwn power lol!
8) But beyond a certain weight-even if much of it is muscle-is bad for your health.
It is a balance; if they are very active & do not abuse PEDs & eat well that may counterbalance things.
But say an NFL lineman who is well over-& unless really tall around 300 lbs.-will likely have better health outcomes if they do not stay so big their whole life.
9) I agree with "Aussie Invader" about stomach fat, tons of research shows this.
However the tendency to gain weight there is also genetic & highly correlated with being male.
At least that can usually be limited, but it does not make sense that everyone will stay lean forever.
And various genetic & psychological & hormonal factors (much triggered by type of diet) make it hard to avoid.
But if we oppose various modern & western exercise & dietary habits, we may have at least *less* fat & be far more active.
Andy Ruiz is not a clincher at all, don't know why he is being brought up
He needs to work on the inside, thats where he is most effective
He also has short arms and his fat gut would get in the way if he attempted to clinch lol.
No way does he dominate wilder in the clinch, he would have to suck in just to wrap his arms around him lol
Wilder would lean his big upper body on him and Humpty dumpty would need to have to sit down in the corner.
Wilder is actually not a bad frame for the clinch tbf, he has the upper body of a 250lbs man and the legs of a 125lbs woman
Wilder has plenty of strength in his upper body for a tussle and has weight to lean on people.
I have seen Wilder man handle plenty of guys heavier than him
Tyson Fury is not only bigger than Wilder he is also taller and longer than him.
Wilder doesn't have the luxury of using leverage in this situation.
Just because Fury could bully him in the clinch doesn't mean many others could tbh
Povetkin is not even close to one of the best clinchers in the game, and it isn't MO
Short guys want to work on the inside. This should be obvious.
Do you recall how an absolute Prime Povetkin got absolutely hugged to death by Wlad?
Wlad definitely was more talented for things called standup grappling. He was very skilled and don't forget that he is Olympic Gold medalist in boxing, like Povetkin is.
Wlad also had used for sparring boxers who are good in clinching, like Briedis and not only Briedis, a lot other guys too.
He might had used even high level grapplers to train his octopus game, why not. He was well known and definitely not poor.
In overall you are correct, Wlad was more proficient in clinch game and octopuse than Vitaly, not alone Povetkin.
It depends from person, he really was talented there and also larger than Povetkin and then not too over the hill.