The All-time H2h Only Rankings

DINAMITA · Jul 24, 2008

This might be interesting.

Who would you place at the top of the all-time rankings for each weight division if you were rating fighters ONLY on the basis of how YOU think they would have fared in fights v other fighters who ever fought in the same weight category.

ie- completely disregarding resume and achievement and longevity at the weight, using no statistics whatsoever, just a decision based purely on YOUR OPINION of how good a fighter the guy was at the weight based on the evidence you have seen on film or through your own research.

This is not the same as saying 'he is the best pound-for-pound at the weight'- although the questions may have the same answer, this is a different debate.

I'm looking for who you think on a given night at his peak would beat everyone else whoever fought at that weight on a given night at their peak.

To explain, Roberto Duran only had 2 fights at welterweight (won 1 on points and lost 1 by stoppage). However, it is perfectly valid in this discussion to say that if you think the Duran who stepped into the ring with Leonard for the Brawl In Montreal would have beaten any other welterweight that ever lived, then in H2H terms for this discussion, you think he would be no 1.

Also, if you think Sugar Ray Robinson was the best welterweight ever, but you also think he could've beaten any other middleweight in history, then you would have him at no 1 for both welterweight and middleweight.

Resume and achievement shouldn't be cited as reasons in this debate, eg Sven Ottke had more fights and made more successful title defences at supermiddleweight than Roy Jones Jr. But if you think RJJ on the night he dominated Toney in Nov 94 would've beaten Ottke on the best night of his career, then you think RJJ was better H2H at supermiddleweight.

I have also included the year(s) I believe they were at the peak that I believe they would've beaten anyone else at the weight.

I haven't included anyone from the prewar era as I think modern training methods, size difference and developments in technique mean modern fighters would win, but I don't want us to get bogged down in that, it's just my personal preference, feel free to include the Langfords and Grebs if that's who you think would win a mystical tournament at a given weight.

OK, you may disagree of my choice of year, and my knowledge of the sub-featherweight divisions is not the strongest, but my picks are-

HEAVY: Lennox Lewis 2000
CRUISER: Evander Holyfield 1986
LIGHT-HEAVY: Michael Spinks 1983
SUPER-MIDDLE: Roy Jones Jr 1994
MIDDLE: Carlos Monzon 1971
LIGHT-MIDDLE: Thomas Hearns 1984
WELTER: Sugar Ray Robinson 1949
LIGHT-WELTER: Aaron Pryor 1982
LIGHT: Roberto Duran 1978
SUPER-FEATHER: Alexis Arguello 1979
FEATHER: Willie Pep 1949
SUPER-BANTAM: Wilfredo Gomez 1978
BANTAM: Eder Jofre 1963-4
SUPER-FLY: Johnny Tapia 1996-7
FLY: Pascual Perez 1954
LIGHT-FLY: Ricardo Lopez 2000
STRAW/MINIMUM: Ricardo Lopez 1993

Thoughts/opinions???

LennoxGOAT · Jul 24, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

This might be interesting.

Who would you place at the top of the all-time rankings for each weight division if you were rating fighters ONLY on the basis of how YOU think they would have fared in fights v other fighters who ever fought in the same weight category.

ie- completely disregarding resume and achievement and longevity at the weight, using no statistics whatsoever, just a decision based purely on YOUR OPINION of how good a fighter the guy was at the weight based on the evidence you have seen on film or through your own research.

This is not the same as saying 'he is the best pound-for-pound at the weight'- although the questions may have the same answer, this is a different debate.

I'm looking for who you think on a given night at his peak would beat everyone else whoever fought at that weight on a given night at their peak.

To explain, Roberto Duran only had 2 fights at welterweight (won 1 on points and lost 1 by stoppage). However, it is perfectly valid in this discussion to say that if you think the Duran who stepped into the ring with Leonard for the Brawl In Montreal would have beaten any other welterweight that ever lived, then in H2H terms for this discussion, you think he would be no 1.

Also, if you think Sugar Ray Robinson was the best welterweight ever, but you also think he could've beaten any other middleweight in history, then you would have him at no 1 for both welterweight and middleweight.

Resume and achievement shouldn't be cited as reasons in this debate, eg Sven Ottke had more fights and made more successful title defences at supermiddleweight than Roy Jones Jr. But if you think RJJ on the night he dominated Toney in Nov 94 would've beaten Ottke on the best night of his career, then you think RJJ was better H2H at supermiddleweight.

I have also included the year(s) I believe they were at the peak that I believe they would've beaten anyone else at the weight.

I haven't included anyone from the prewar era as I think modern training methods, size difference and developments in technique mean modern fighters would win, but I don't want us to get bogged down in that, it's just my personal preference, feel free to include the Langfords and Grebs if that's who you think would win a mystical tournament at a given weight.

OK, you may disagree of my choice of year, and my knowledge of the sub-featherweight divisions is not the strongest, but my picks are-

HEAVY: Lennox Lewis 2000
CRUISER: Evander Holyfield 1986
LIGHT-HEAVY: Michael Spinks 1983
SUPER-MIDDLE: Roy Jones Jr 1994
MIDDLE: Carlos Monzon 1971

Thoughts/opinions???
Click to expand...

I think Moorer is the best light heavy of all-time and I think Hagler is the best middle. Regardless, can't really disagree with any of them. Good list.

LeonardLeroy · Jul 24, 2008

i really like your choices. And I can't really disagree with you right away.

Sweet Pea · Jul 24, 2008

LennoxGOAT said:

I think Moorer is the best light heavy of all-time and I think Hagler is the best middle. Regardless, can't really disagree with any of them. Good list.
Click to expand...

Did you mean Moore?

LennoxGOAT · Jul 24, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

Did you mean Moore?
Click to expand...

Nope. I think Moorer, h2h, is the best light heavy of all-time.

BewareofDawg · Jul 24, 2008

Ooooh your in big trouble :rofl Do you know where you are??? You better put Calzaghe, Floyd, Pac and Margarito on that list ASAP or this thread is about to explode!!! :yikes

Sweet Pea · Jul 24, 2008

Here's what I have for now.

HEAVY: Mike Tyson, with Lewis and Holmes making a bid
CRUISER: Evander Holyfield/Rocky Marciano(if he can be considered)
LIGHT-HEAVY: Ezzard Charles
SUPER-MIDDLE: Roy Jones Jr.
MIDDLE: Carlos Monzon
LIGHT-MIDDLE: Thomas Hearns/McCallum
WELTER: Sugar Ray Robinson/Leonard
LIGHT-WELTER: Also difficult, Aaron Pryor along with others like Napoles, Whitaker, Loi, etc who all fought here
LIGHT: Duran/Whitaker
SUPER-FEATHER: Floyd Mayweather Jr.
FEATHER: Willie Pep
SUPER-BANTAM: Wilfredo Gomez
BANTAM: Eder Jofre
SUPER-FLY: Tapia's a good choice, along with Watanabe and Roman, and Mijares is right there already IMO
FLY: Very difficult choice, I'll have to think on it more.
LIGHT-FLY: Jung-Koo Chang
STRAW/MINIMUM: Ricardo Lopez

Sweet Pea · Jul 24, 2008

LennoxGOAT said:

Nope. I think Moorer, h2h, is the best light heavy of all-time.
Click to expand...

:rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against David Stonewalker and Leslie Stewart? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at LHW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 LHW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at a distance. Any swarmer with a punch would probably take him out, such as a Qawi type.

BewareofDawg · Jul 24, 2008

Heavy - Muhammad Ali
Cruiser - Evander Holyfield
Lt Heavy - Roy Jones 1998
S Middle - Roy Jones 1994
Middle - Roy Jones 1993
Lt Middle - Not sure
Welter - Robinson

LennoxGOAT · Jul 24, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

:rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against David Stonewalker and Leslie Stewart? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at LHW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 LHW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at a distance. Any swarmer with a punch would probably take him out, such as a Qawi type.
Click to expand...

Getting into a h2h discussion is rather pointless seeing as you have Tyson as the heavyweight placeholder... :rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against Mitch Blood Green or Quick Tillis? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at HW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 HW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at close range. Any big with a punch and mental toughness would probably take him out, such as a Ali type.

BewareofDawg · Jul 24, 2008

LennoxGOAT said:

Getting into a h2h discussion is rather pointless seeing as you have Tyson as the heavyweight placeholder... :rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against Mitch Blood Green or Quick Tillis? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at HW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 HW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at close range. Any big with a punch and mental toughness would probably take him out, such as a Ali type.
Click to expand...

This was a great post up until the point I stopped bolding. There are NOT 20 Heavyweights that could have beaten Tyson. I can think of less then a handful I would give a decent or good shot to.

DINAMITA · Jul 24, 2008

LennoxGOAT said:

Getting into a h2h discussion is rather pointless seeing as you have Tyson as the heavyweight placeholder... :rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against Mitch Blood Green or Quick Tillis? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at HW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 HW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at close range. Any big with a punch and mental toughness would probably take him out, such as a Ali type.
Click to expand...

Touche!! The Pea is right about Moorer though IMO.

Sweet Pea · Jul 24, 2008

LennoxGOAT said:

Getting into a h2h discussion is rather pointless seeing as you have Tyson as the heavyweight placeholder... :rofl

What gave you that impression, his inspiring performances against Mitch Blood Green or Quick Tillis? The defensive liabilities he showed, or the stellar B-C level opposition he fought throughout?

Let me ask you how much you've seen of him.

Why on Earth is this guy so overrated at HW? It's absurd. I can probably name 20 HW's he'd lose to off the top of the head. Very limited fighter with top notch power and a good jab when allowed to fight at close range. Any big with a punch and mental toughness would probably take him out, such as a Ali type.
Click to expand...

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Sweet Pea · Jul 24, 2008

Wow, the fact that anyone could be fooled by that nonsense is just hysterical.

DINAMITA · Jul 24, 2008

BewareofDawg said:

This was a great post up until the point I stopped bolding. There are NOT 20 Heavyweights that could have beaten Tyson. I can think of less then a handful I would give a decent or good shot to.
Click to expand...

I agree re Tyson.

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