The All-Time H2H ONLY Rankings

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by DINAMITA, Jul 24, 2008.


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  1. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    This might be interesting.

    Who would you place at the top of the all-time rankings for each weight division if you were rating fighters ONLY on the basis of how YOU think they would have fared in fights v other fighters who ever fought in the same weight category.

    ie- completely disregarding resume and achievement and longevity at the weight, using no statistics whatsoever, just a decision based purely on YOUR OPINION of how good a fighter the guy was at the weight based on the evidence you have seen on film or through your own research.

    This is not the same as saying 'he is the best pound-for-pound at the weight'- although the questions may have the same answer, this is a different debate.

    I'm looking for who you think on a given night at his peak would beat everyone else whoever fought at that weight on a given night at their peak.

    To explain, Roberto Duran only had 2 fights at welterweight (won 1 on points and lost 1 by stoppage). However, it is perfectly valid in this discussion to say that if you think the Duran who stepped into the ring with Leonard for the Brawl In Montreal would have beaten any other welterweight that ever lived, then in H2H terms for this discussion, you think he would be no 1.

    Also, if you think Sugar Ray Robinson was the best welterweight ever, but you also think he could've beaten any other middleweight in history, then you would have him at no 1 for both welterweight and middleweight.

    Resume and achievement shouldn't be cited as reasons in this debate, eg Sven Ottke had more fights and made more successful title defences at supermiddleweight than Roy Jones Jr. But if you think RJJ on the night he dominated Toney in Nov 94 would've beaten Ottke on the best night of his career, then you think RJJ was better H2H at supermiddleweight.

    I have also included the year(s) I believe they were at the peak that I believe they would've beaten anyone else at the weight.

    I haven't included anyone from the prewar era as I think modern training methods, size difference and developments in technique mean modern fighters would win, but I don't want us to get bogged down in that, it's just my personal preference, feel free to include the Langfords and Grebs if that's who you think would win a mystical tournament at a given weight.

    OK, you may disagree of my choice of year, and my knowledge of the sub-featherweight divisions is not the strongest, but my picks are-

    HEAVY: Lennox Lewis 2000
    CRUISER: Evander Holyfield 1986
    LIGHT-HEAVY: Michael Spinks 1983
    SUPER-MIDDLE: Roy Jones Jr 1994
    MIDDLE: Carlos Monzon 1971
    LIGHT-MIDDLE: Thomas Hearns 1984
    WELTER: Sugar Ray Robinson 1949
    LIGHT-WELTER: Aaron Pryor 1982
    LIGHT: Roberto Duran 1978
    SUPER-FEATHER: Alexis Arguello 1979
    FEATHER: Willie Pep 1949
    SUPER-BANTAM: Wilfredo Gomez 1978
    BANTAM: Eder Jofre 1963-4
    SUPER-FLY: Johnny Tapia 1996-7
    FLY: Pascual Perez 1954
    LIGHT-FLY: Ricardo Lopez 2000
    STRAW/MINIMUM: Ricardo Lopez 1993

    Thoughts/opinions???
     
    DINAMITA, Jul 24, 2008
    DINAMITA, Jul 24, 2008
    #1
  2. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I actually think I agree with you from Jr. Lightweight up through Super Middleweight. I also agree with Gomez at 122. Not knowledgable enough to comment below that myself. Agree with Holyfield at Cruiser.
    I like Sanchez and Saddler off the top of my head over Pep (good pick though). Charles and Moore, MAYBE Foster and Conn over Spinks.
    Too many to list over Lennox at Heavy ;-). I don't think any heavy ever beats 66-67 Ali.
     
    natonic, Jul 24, 2008
    natonic, Jul 24, 2008
    #2
  3. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Cheers for the post. My own knowledge south of featherweight is not great to be honest. Sweet Pea's is though, and on the General Forum he agreed with most of my lower weight choices.
    Saddler and Charles sound like great picks at feather and light-heavy, I just havent seen enough of them myself to put them down as my no1s.
    I understand your misgivings about Lennox, he is one that splits opinion. IMO Ali is the best heavyweight ever pound-for-pound, but the 2000 Lewis who was coming off the Holyfield and KO'd Grant, Botha and shutout the dangerous Tua, I think would have been too big, too powerful and too savvy for any other HW.
     
    DINAMITA, Jul 24, 2008
    DINAMITA, Jul 24, 2008
    #3
  4. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Pacfan, i agree with more or less the lot of your picks, mine would be-

    HW- Ali
    CW- Holyfield
    LHW- Charles
    SMW- Jones (although Calzage has diminished in h2h terms in the minds of many lately, i wouldnt mind if some1 picked him, though it is Jones that is more justifiable here most definitely)
    MW- Robinson
    LMW- Hearns, (McCallum i wouldnt mind seeing)
    WW- Robinson
    LWW- Pryor
    LW- Duran
    SFW- Mayweather imo
    FW- Pep
    SBW- Gomez (though Morales may not be the correct pick, i see him as trully prolific at this weight, and greatness can win the day over adversity)
    BW- Jofre
    SFLW- Tapia
    FLW- Perez
    LFLW- Lopez
    SW- Lopez

    I think you more or less have the list right.
     
    teeto, Jul 24, 2008
    teeto, Jul 24, 2008
    #4
  5. Loewe

    Loewe internet hero Full Member

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    HEAVY: Lennox Lewis 2000 - agree, also i want to throw in a guy who i will get a bit critic: Vitali K. - granit chin, workrate, size, power, stamina and the mean streak. imo every hw in history would have his hands full with him.
    CRUISER: Evander Holyfield 1986 - agree
    LIGHT-HEAVY: Michael Spinks 1983 - Ezzard Charles
    SUPER-MIDDLE: Roy Jones Jr 1994 - Joe Calzaghe deserves a mention i think, RJJ fought only 4 times there if i remember right
    MIDDLE: Carlos Monzon 1971 - very good pick also i would like to throw in Bernard Hopkins
    LIGHT-MIDDLE: Thomas Hearns 1984 - Mike McCallum
    WELTER: Sugar Ray Robinson 1949 - Mickey Walker
    LIGHT-WELTER: Aaron Pryor 1982 - agree
    LIGHT: Roberto Duran 1978 - agree but Sweet Pea deseves a mention
    SUPER-FEATHER: Alexis Arguello 1979 - agree
    FEATHER: Willie Pep 1949 - Sandy Saddler
    SUPER-BANTAM: Wilfredo Gomez 1978 - agree
    BANTAM: Eder Jofre 1963-4 - agree with the exception of Harada who i think would always beat him
    SUPER-FLY: Johnny Tapia 1996-7
    FLY: Pascual Perez 1954
    LIGHT-FLY: Ricardo Lopez 2000
    STRAW/MINIMUM: Ricardo Lopez 1993


    Can´t say enough about the last few weight classes due to my limited interest in them.
     
    Loewe, Jul 24, 2008
    Loewe, Jul 24, 2008
    #5
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    O dear vitali nominated for greatest heavyweight of all time h2h? LoL why dont we actually see if he can beat an in shape top contender before we even remotley decide to rank him anywhere.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    #6
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, I also don't feel that he's tested enough to make that kind of statement about. He's had three quite terrible losses, after all, without the wins to make up for it. So we know that he can lose against relatively poor opposition, but not that he can beat anyone really, really good.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 24, 2008
    Bokaj, Jul 24, 2008
    #7
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I would be happy to name ten heavyweights I would make favourite over Vitali.
     
    McGrain, Jul 24, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 24, 2008
    #8
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sorry, I thought you wrote Wladimir K. But I don't feel that Vitaly is tested enough, either. His probably most famous effort was a losing one (albeit still a bit impressive), and that doesn't really give you enough to stand on.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 24, 2008
    Bokaj, Jul 24, 2008
    #9
  10. Muchmoore

    Muchmoore Guest

    Suzie he was so good at winning rounds!

    Also, don't forget, he beat the immortal lightning punching heavy handed super southpaw Corrie Sanders.
     
    Muchmoore, Jul 24, 2008
    Muchmoore, Jul 24, 2008
    #10
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    O shoot your right! how could I forget that freak of nature! :good
     
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    #11
  12. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    Even tho Ive been a boxing fan for many yrs, there were just some divisions that I never watched too much (I regret not doing so now) so I wont include them......

    HWT - Muhammad Ali (vs cleveland, williams 1966)

    CRUISER-WT - Evander Holyfield (His whole reign in the late 80s)

    LT-HWT - ...X... cant comment thru lack of interest (what the **** was I thinking ?) :-(

    SUPER-MWT - Roy Jones (vs James Toney 1996) tho Calzaghe vs Lacy in 06 was close to that for perfection but I rate Toney higher than Lacy so RJJ wins.

    MWT - Ray Robinson (vs Jake Lamotta, 1951)

    LT-MWT - Thomas Hearns (vs Wilfred Benitez, 1982)

    WELTER-WT - Ray Robinson (His whole reign in the 40s)

    LT-WELTER-WT - Julio Cesar Chavez (vs Hector Camacho, 1992)

    LWT - Roberto Duran (vs Esteban De Jesus, 1978.... tho Chavez vs Rosario & Whitaker vs Ramirez II deserve a mention)

    SUPER-FWT - Alexis Arguello (His whole reign in the late 70s)

    FWT - Willie Pep (His whole reign + 2nd Saddler fight)

    SUPER-BANTAM-WT - Erik Morales (from Zaragoza-Barrera... I havent seen enough of Gomez so dont hunt me down guys)


    Forget any lower than these weights but just 2 words deserve to be mentioned - Ricardo Lopez.

    :thumbsup
     
    Bill Butcher, Jul 24, 2008
    Bill Butcher, Jul 24, 2008
    #12
  13. Loewe

    Loewe internet hero Full Member

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    Did i wrote it? No, i didn´t, i agreed with Lewis. I just threw in him because i think he´s one of the big ifs. And you don´t need to be great to pose some trouble to greats. In my oppionion he would give any heavy a good fight. If he would be able to beat them is total different matter.

    But, well, i know it´s some kind of reflex with most guys over here. They read Klitschko and immediatly become an "omg"-attitude and go on bashing. It´s actually quite funny.
     
    Loewe, Jul 24, 2008
    Loewe, Jul 24, 2008
    #13
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Bill Butcher i like many of your picks
     
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Jul 24, 2008
    #14
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Only ten? :lol:
     
    JohnThomas1, Jul 24, 2008
    JohnThomas1, Jul 24, 2008
    #15
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