The answer to did Dempsey take a dive ?

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263459

 

revisionism. there is little to no evidence that dempsey threw the fight other than hearsay of people who were all either trying to prop dempsey up by getting people to believe he couldnt be KOd, or tear him down (maxine) by claiming he was a faker. Should we also believe that Dempsey's early aggression was based on him using cocaine as Maxine also alleged? Not only do first hand contemporary accounts illustrate that Dempsey was legitimately KOd but they also point to the fact that he was knocked out pretty hard and took time to recover even after being counted out. Dempsey was and is always overrated but in 1917 he was still far from the finished fighter he would become. Remember, this is a guy who only recently had struggled with a very subpar Terry Keller twice, getting dropped once, and was hurt pretty bad against journeyman J. L. Johnson. immediately after the Flynn fight he drew and lost in three straight four rounders against Meehan and Al Norton and before you say they were only four rounders lets not forget that this is a guy who thrives on being a terror for the first three or four rounds of a fight.

 

well researched.

How big was boxing in Utah? I know Dempsey was barely making a living back then, even reducing himself to marrying a hooker to stay afloat, but seriously, is there any shame in a freak one round KO loss at that point of his career? We are talking of the wild west era after all.

If it was on the level I don’t think it should effect Dempsey’s resume because he wasn’t yet an established fighter with the right backing. It wasn’t much after the hobo period of his life. Remember young Dempsey was campaigning in a quasi acceptable, un regulated sport that is barely recognisable with modern boxing that did not begin until about 1922. It wasn’t like he was from the Olympics and was backed by millionaire historians/business men or numbers men who were hand picking a safe route to the title. This was the wild west.

When you rate a fighter you rate them from the point in the career when they were at their best. For Dempsey his reputation is built from the point he met Kearns who took him home and had his mother feed him up.

When Dempsey met Flynn he already had the makings of a great fighter but was either out of his depth, under prepared or not trying. I really don’t mind which of the three it was since he had not began the roll that made his name.

 

The bottom line is that we can never know.

There is no film of the fight, and everybody involved is dead.

 

Quality post. :good

 

Have you wrote any books on the era K?

 

dempsey grew up fast and jumped from manager to manager, state to state looking for someone or something that would help forward his career as a prize fighter. He worked the mines and as a kid fought for cash "pass the hat" style against men. sometimes he won, sometimes he lost, sometimes he could afford a room, sometimes not. it was a hard way to make a living when you could not train full time or stay in anyone place long enough to get established. a far cry from how later starlets made their name in boxing. His wife maxine was a hooker. IMO its obvious that her proceeds helped him afford to train full time.

 

But their acccounts is still around. And that is the basis of historical knowledge for the main part; first-hand accounts. In this case, all first-hand accounts seem to point very much in the same direction, which would be quite enough for any historian, I'd say. Well, if he doesn't have a thing for good ol' Jack that is.:yep

 

just my opinion, but I have a hunch jack was always cold, ruthless kind of guy who would do anything to get on in life. later when he was established he played the role of "no nonsense decency" itself but with his background, I think he was always just so ruthless.

 

I supose so.. I just think it strange that a tough young hobo, rod riding, saloon fighting well traveled prize fighter wasnt streetwise enough not to fall for a hooker.... he wasnt some green "farm boy" was he?