The Best H2H Heavyweight Fighter

PhillyPhan69 · Jul 30, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

:good
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On that note I personally Like:
1 frazier
2 Louis
3 Liston
4 Holmes
5 Ali

Now this does not reflect my overall HW rankings, just how I personall feel things would happen H2H..but shoot I though Tyson would devestate Douglas, SRL would coast over Duran in the 1st encounter, Holmes would demolish Spinks etc..so who really knows!!! When you get 2 elite fighters in the ring it is not as sure of a thing as most of us make it out to be.

PetethePrince · Jul 31, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

Hence why I said 'NEARLY' :good
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What is "nearly unsurpassed?" It's quite an oxymoron. :good

Flea Man · Jul 31, 2009

PetethePrince said: ↑

What is "nearly unsurpassed?" It's quite an oxymoron. :good
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yea I know! what i meant was 'nearly the best' lol it was early and I'm at work had to type using a stream of consciousness rather than thinking atsch

Holmes' Jab · Jul 31, 2009

I voted for the heavyweight great most baffling excluded from this list.

janitor · Jul 31, 2009

PetethePrince said: ↑

I have 9, 10 is the max. Can't get them all. I know Louis was a big one though. Things happen...
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I would have to note that you found room for Evander Holyfield and Riddick Bowe but not Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson which seems a little curious given that the latter two could probably draw more suport even today.

At least a couple of noted historians would say that Jim Jeffries should have been one of the options on the grounds that he was darn near unbeatable under the rule set of his era.

Even your namesake Peter Jackson might have had a claim to a place in the poll at one time.

ironchamp · Jul 31, 2009

Mike Tyson

OBCboxer · Jul 31, 2009

PhillyPhan69 said: ↑

It is not my means of reasoning...it means that I am fine if I stand alone! I don't see why FOTC Frazier would not be Heck for anyone to handle or what would make anyone think he would be an easy out for anyone either. Having said that if you don't agree that's cool! Cause..well I already said it!
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He would give anyone in history a great fight except Liston and Foreman.

rekcutnevets · Jul 31, 2009

I picked Ali. Ali proved himself against various styles, and defeated 2 fellow top 10 all time greats in Frazier and Foreman. Ali's athleticism and will to win make him difficult for anyone.

Holmes and Lewis would be next. Those are the two fighters that raise the most doubts for me when analyzing mythical match-ups vs Ali.

jaffay · Jul 31, 2009

Ali

PetethePrince · Jul 31, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

yea I know! what i meant was 'nearly the best' lol it was early and I'm at work had to type using a stream of consciousness rather than thinking atsch
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It's all good. I was just getting defensive with all the laughing and thumbs up treatment you were giving me.

janitor said: ↑

I would have to note that you found room for Evander Holyfield and Riddick Bowe but not Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson which seems a little curious given that the latter two could probably draw more suport even today.

At least a couple of noted historians would say that Jim Jeffries should have been one of the options on the grounds that he was darn near unbeatable under the rule set of his era.

Even your namesake Peter Jackson might have had a claim to a place in the poll at one time.
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In H2H I think it's clear that Bowe and Holyfield have a lot more on Dempsey and Johnson. Both are ATG Heavyweight fighters but in terms of H2H they have disadvantages. Most fighters of the past had a lack of knowledge of nutritions and supplimentation and all those the benefits modern fighters possess. Holyfield is a very complete and balanced fight and I find Bowe to be a potential top 5 H2H fighter. Both might've been greater champions but I don't think they do better in H2H than Holyfield or Bowe.

Jim Jeffries could, especially under his ruling. I should have made that clearer, but I was thinking in the 12-15 round era with at the bare minimum 6-8+ oz gloves (10+ most likely).

The thing with guys like Jeffries and Johnson is they can't use their strength and size to break down most of the fighters like they had. And it would be tough for Johnson to be as defensively game against some of these stronger, quicker, and better fighters. As for Dempsey, he was just too small to compete with the best of the best when it comes to H2H. It's not like these fighters might not fall in a top 10 or 15 in terms of H2H, it's just they aren't clear viable candadites.

Joe Louis is a big exclusion. But again, you could only list 10, I listed 9. And I unfortunately went blank with that one.

And I don't think I was thinking of listing Dempsey without having listed Frazier or Marciano. Who I believe to be the better fighters and much better H2H fighters.

janitor · Jul 31, 2009

PetethePrince said: ↑

In H2H I think it's clear that Bowe and Holyfield have a lot more on Dempsey and Johnson. Both are ATG Heavyweight fighters but in terms of H2H they have disadvantages. Most fighters of the past had a lack of knowledge of nutritions and supplimentation and all those the benefits modern fighters possess.

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Looking at the training regimes of fighters like Fitzsimmons and Jeffries it is aparent that they had diets verry similar to modern athletes and seemed to know as much via old wives law as we do via modern sports science.

Now there have been major advances in sports nutrition between since their time but by far the biggest advances have actualy taken place in the 80s meaning that the fighters of the 70s would not have benefited from them.

Holyfield is a very complete and balanced fight and I find Bowe to be a potential top 5 H2H fighter. Both might've been greater champions but I don't think they do better in H2H than Holyfield or Bowe.

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Here I am not so sure.

Holyfield is an overachiever. He is also perhaps the most dangerous heavyweight of all time from the neck up. He is good at everything but great at nothing which I guess makes him a well ballanced design. This makes him a great great fighter but not the best of all time head to head.

Bowe looks awsome in a small number of performances but just left so many unanswered questions. Most crucialy he did not prove himself against a wide range of styles which hurts him in this context.

Jim Jeffries could, especially under his ruling. I should have made that clearer, but I was thinking in the 12-15 round era with at the bare minimum 6-8+ oz gloves (10+ most likely).

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Fair enough.

I didn't pull you up for not including Tom Cribb in the poll on the grounds that he might have beaten everybody else in a bare knuckle fight.

The thing with guys like Jeffries and Johnson is they can't use their strength and size to break down most of the fighters like they had. And it would be tough for Johnson to be as defensively game against some of these stronger, quicker, and better fighters.
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Johnson actualy beat a lot of fighters who were much bigger than himself but unfortunately these fights were not filmed apart from the Willard and Jeffries fights.

He is probably more proven against top flight fighters over 200 lbs than any champion prior to the 1970s with the possible exception of Louis.

As for Dempsey, he was just too small to compete with the best of the best when it comes to H2H. It's not like these fighters might not fall in a top 10 or 15 in terms of H2H, it's just they aren't clear viable candadites.
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I think that Dempsey despite his size was right up there with the best finishers of all time head to head. He Louis and Tyson stand in a class apart from the rest of the champions as finishers (in my opinion), and that could have been good grounds for giving him a place in the poll.

Joe Louis is a big exclusion. But again, you could only list 10, I listed 9. And I unfortunately went blank with that one.

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Louis would have been the first name to enter my mind to be honest because he basicaly has the tools to beat anybody if they are used right.

And I don't think I was thinking of listing Dempsey without having listed Frazier or Marciano. Who I believe to be the better fighters and much better H2H fighters.

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I would say that they are different kinds of fighter than Dempsey and that is more important than who is better in resume or head to head.

Marciano and Frazier score high in resume and might beat Dempsey head to head while Dempsey scores verry high in terms of head to head against the fighters you shortlisted.
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PetethePrince · Jul 31, 2009

janitor said: ↑

Looking at the training regimes of fighters like Fitzsimmons and Jeffries it is aparent that they had diets verry similar to modern athletes and seemed to know as much via old wives law as we do via modern sports science.

Now there have been major advances in sports nutrition between since their time but by far the biggest advances have actualy taken place in the 80s meaning that the fighters of the 70s would not have benefited from them.
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You can't argue much with 70's fighters that I've listed I don't think. I guess you could. However, most are much bigger anyway, and Bowe/Holyfield comes afters the 80's.

Here I am not so sure.

Holyfield is an overachiever. He is also perhaps the most dangerous heavyweight of all time from the neck up. He is good at everything but great at nothing which I guess makes him a well ballanced design. This makes him a great great fighter but not the best of all time head to head.

Bowe looks awsome in a small number of performances but just left so many unanswered questions. Most crucialy he did not prove himself against a wide range of styles which hurts him in this context.
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I think the Bowe comment is a good observation. However, on paper he has the tools to beat or make a good fight at of anyone listed. Holyfield has a few votes, that may suprise you. Either way, do you really think Dempsey or Johnson can beat as many fighters listed as Holyfield can, much less beat Holyfield. Rules are different, but we will see 15 rounds to meet in the middle.

Johnson actualy beat a lot of fighters who were much bigger than himself but unfortunately these fights were not filmed apart from the Willard and Jeffries fights.

He is probably more proven against top flight fighters over 200 lbs than any champion prior to the 1970s with the possible exception of Louis.
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That's fair, I guess. But fighters have advanced since then quite a long ways. How great were some of these big men? Most of the big names he has on his resume are old/inactive or small fighters. Not be harsh on Johnson, but a big guy of that area was largely slow and much less skilled. It's not hard to imagine most of the more modern fighters wiping the floor with these fighters.

I think that Dempsey despite his size was right up there with the best finishers of all time head to head. He Louis and Tyson stand in a class apart from the rest of the champions as finishers (in my opinion), and that could have been good grounds for giving him a place in the poll.
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Because he's a strong finisher he's a top H2H fighter? I agree Dempsey is a top 3 finisher, too. But there's a lot you have to do to get there before you have to finish. Every name nominated here beats Dempsey, and most beat him badly in my opinion.

Louis would have been the first name to enter my mind to be honest because he basicaly has the tools to beat anybody if they are used right.
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I started down the list from the most modern fighters in my mind really. I think Lewis and Ali popped in my head first. But hey, I'm human.

I would say that they are different kinds of fighter than Dempsey and that is more important than who is better in resume or head to head.

Marciano and Frazier score high in resume and might beat Dempsey head to head while Dempsey scores verry high in terms of head to head against the fighters you shortlisted.
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That's hard to come to grips with. What makes Dempsey so much superior in terms of H2H than Marciano or Frazier? Looking at what he did, and the trouble he had I don't see how you can say this. Less durable than both (Especially Rocky), hits at best equal to Frazier (That most be questionable), and is less solid/well built. Dempsey may be taller, and have more range but with his style of fighting I see this as a disadvantage. Marciano and Frazier could be harder to get at since they are the lower target. Dempsey has a great defense, but there's a lot of things that leave me not entirely impressed with what he did under his own circumstances. Ferocity and finishing won't be enough to get him in in terms of H2H. What listed fighter does he even beat?
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janitor · Jul 31, 2009

PetethePrince said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

You can't argue much with 70's fighters that I've listed I don't think. I guess you could. However, most are much bigger anyway, and Bowe/Holyfield comes afters the 80's.

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I wouldn't dispute the 70s fighters you listed I am just pointing out that the really big advances in nutrition came after their time.

I personaly rate the heavyweights over the period since these big nutritional advances (80s and after) took place lower than most people do.

Holyfield has a few votes, that may suprise you.
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It did.

Either way, do you really think Dempsey or Johnson can beat as many fighters listed as Holyfield can, much less beat Holyfield. Rules are different, but we will see 15 rounds to meet in the middle.

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I would honestly pick both Johnson and Dempsey to beat Holyfield over 15 rounds.

I also think that the only version of Holyfield who would have a chance against either is the cruiserweight version.

That's fair, I guess. But fighters have advanced since then quite a long ways. How great were some of these big men? Most of the big names he has on his resume are old/inactive or small fighters. Not be harsh on Johnson, but a big guy of that area was largely slow and much less skilled. It's not hard to imagine most of the more modern fighters wiping the floor with these fighters.

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I would caution you against dismising the bigger guys Johnson beat.

Denver Ed Martin was tall mobile, and an excelent technical boxer. Jeffries had been acused of avoiding him. On paper he was a stylistic nightmare for Johnson with height and reach advantages.

Johnson soundly outboxed him in the first fight and stopped him early in the second. The media were more than impressed.

When Johnson fought Sam McVea the press described them as "the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title". Johnson dominated Sam McVea three times.

Sandy Ferguson was seen by some scribes as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne and Johnson beat him five times!

Because he's a strong finisher he's a top H2H fighter? I agree Dempsey is a top 3 finisher, too. But there's a lot you have to do to get there before you have to finish. Every name nominated here beats Dempsey, and most beat him badly in my opinion.

That's hard to come to grips with. What makes Dempsey so much superior in terms of H2H than Marciano or Frazier? Looking at what he did, and the trouble he had I don't see how you can say this. Less durable than both (Especially Rocky), hits at best equal to Frazier (That most be questionable), and is less solid/well built.

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What makes him better in this context?

The fact that you only have to bite on one feint against him and you are toast. Dempseys finishing abilities would make him a constant threat to anybody.
Marciano and Frazier might surpass him in many peramiters but could they beat George Foreman or Lennox Lewis?

Dempsey would be a threat to either for every second of the fight.
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PetethePrince · Jul 31, 2009

janitor said: ↑

PetethePrince said: ↑

I would honestly pick both Johnson and Dempsey to beat Holyfield over 15 rounds.
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:shock: Over 15 rounds? Dempsey never fought over 15 rounds. Either way, in a 15 round fight I have Holyfield and Johnson. Ah, I get what you're saying. You're saying over the 15 rounds, not over as in more than 15. In any case, I flat out disagree.

I also think that the only version of Holyfield who would have a chance against either is the cruiserweight version.
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I disagree. He may fair a good chance still.

I would caution you against dismising the bigger guys Johnson beat.

Denver Ed Martin was tall mobile, and an excelent technical boxer. Jeffries had been acused of avoiding him. On paper he was a stylistic nightmare for Johnson with height and reach advantages.

Johnson soundly outboxed him in the first fight and stopped him early in the second. The media were more than impressed.

When Johnson fought Sam McVea the press described them as "the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title". Johnson dominated Sam McVea three times.

Sandy Ferguson was seen by some scribes as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne and Johnson beat him five times!
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Fair enough.

What makes him better in this context?

The fact that you only have to bite on one feint against him and you are toast. Dempseys finishing abilities would make him a constant threat to anybody.

Marciano and Frazier might surpass him in many peramiters but could they beat George Foreman or Lennox Lewis?

Dempsey would be a threat to either for every second of the fight.
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What? Dempsey was dropped by Firpo twice, one was out of the ring in a push/punch. Flynn knocked him out cold in round 1. Didn't Tunney, one of the weakest hitting Heavyweight champs of all time drop him while back pedaling with a jab?

Foreman would absolutely demolish Dempsey. The fact that Dempsey is more a mid-range fighter as opposed to Frazier huts him more in a fight againt Foreman I think. Lewis would handle Dempsey with ease and probably knock him out. When you're 180-190 pounds it's hard to get off on these guys especially when you don't have the durability neccessary to do so. Dempsey just can't withstand shots from Foreman or Lewis. I don't see how you see Dempsey getting their. Frazier and Marciano can at least withstand more punishment, and I think they have both proven that.

If Dempsey can't beat neither Frazier or Marciano or any other guy on the list then I don't see how he's so great H2H. His odds may be better in some of these matchups, but overall I don't find him to be much better fighter H2H. At least not one worth mentioning over any of the already noted candadites.
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Muchmoore · Jul 31, 2009

Tyson or Ali imo. There's a fighter or two I'd pick to beat each of them but overall they are top two. Ali beats every puncher who ever lived, and boxers are screwed against him because they're in with a guy who can beat them to the punch. Peak Frazier is close to even money with him and I personally think Lennox Lewis would of been a daunting task.

Tyson mows down pretty much everyone who tries to trade with him due to the fact he can absorb pretty much any single shot that lands on him and his own offensive ability sets him apart. It takes the very top end fighters with the right gameplan and the right strengths to beat him. Only Holyfield, Ali, Liston do I seriously worry about picking him against. Foreman has a shot too though.

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