The best HW never to hold the lineal title.

lufcrazy · Aug 8, 2016

edward morbius said: ↑

Comments

The Vitali thing is over my head. I will let it to those more into and understanding of bureaucratic thinking. As no one beat the man who was the man, I don't know who would end up lineal, but I thought Vitali was widely viewed as the top man and the champion for a while.

As modern fighters are so much bigger than the old timers, I see how one could view someone like Wilder as the best guy not to get a shot, but he probably will.

As for the for me more interesting question of who was in his own time the most outstanding fighter who did not get a shot, I think the black fighters during the color line era stand out. Jackson. Langford. Wills. I would take Wills as the one with the best claim for a title shot of the three.

Quarry and Ellis--the overrated twins with all the support they have gotten on this thread. The two of them fought Ali and Frazier seven times and went 0-7 with 7 stoppage defeats, and none of the fights was competitive.

Billy Conn, who I don't think has been mentioned, certainly has a much better claim as he gave Louis a terrific tussle when he got the chance, rather than just proving he was a mile over his head against the top man.
Click to expand...

He certainly was the top man :good

Yeah I'd imagine Wilder and Joshua will get a shot eventually.

Good point on those 2.

Excellent point on Conn.

lufcrazy · Aug 9, 2016

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

No Alexander Powetkin was never higher ranked than Vitaly Klitschko, by anthing serios, until he retired in december 2013. But Wladimir Klitschko vs. Alexander Powetkin happened already in september 2013, so your whole argumentation-chain is just wrong.

Cotto (who got a gift decision vs. Mosley just before it) and Margarito were probably the highest ranked welterweights, as the later one had immediately previous destroyed Cintron (for the IBF title) a second time and Williams lost around that time against Quintana. I'm pretty sure that after this onwards was the "Tijuana Tornado" recognized as "Ring Magazine champion". Mayweather won that already against Mosley (and before vs. Baldomir), so he defended it against Pacquaio, while Pacquaio vs. Bradley I & II weren't most likely for this emblem (especially since Marquez was robbed in their third fight).

Sanders was before in question as legitimate challenger for Lewis (particular before Klitschko vs. Johnson, when we didn't know how it goes). When you doubt that Vitaly Klitschko was it, then can be questioned if Lewis was lineal champion just as.
Click to expand...

TBRB ranked Wlad 1 and Povetkin 2.

The closeness of the Mosley Cotto fight and the defeat to Williams is exactly why it wasn't 1v2.

I kinda think you're just trolling now tbh.

Unforgiven · Aug 9, 2016

edward morbius said: ↑

Quarry and Ellis--the overrated twins with all the support they have gotten on this thread. The two of them fought Ali and Frazier seven times and went 0-7 with 7 stoppage defeats, and none of the fights was competitive.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.
But, apart from a mention in the OP, it was probably me who added Ellis into the conversation. Not because I think he's the best HW never to hold the 'lineal' title - I don't think he's anywhere near. But simply because I'd rate him higher than Quarry, who was getting a lot of support.
Generally I think Quarry is more overrated than Ellis.

As you correctly point out, Quarry (as well as Ellis) was hopelessly outclassed when he stepped in with Ali and Frazier, and if he'd had faced any good version of Foreman I think he would have been massacred there too !

lufcrazy · Aug 10, 2016

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Are you mentally disabled or just slow in the uptake?:huh:blood

Klitschko was recognized as champion since his Tschagajew victory, but his brother was ranked at 1 and Powetkin at 2. The two Klitschko were the best in 2013.

Mosley was actual robbed there, but Cotto was neverless official the winner. After the defeat to Williams, which was pretty close too (I scored Margarito vs. Williams as draw, while the rounds for Tony were more comfortable), stopped he Golden Johnson in the first round and inhalted Cintron complettely for the second time (who was IBF champion when), but Williams had only the second-tier WBO title and was outboxed by Cotto-sacrifice Quintana (immediately after the rematch moved he up). So Margarito defended it against Mosley, while who was probably still ranked behind Cotto.

By the way are these rankings not very important to me (or for boxers and the public); I think the indepentant computer world rankings are more relevant (Boxing Monthly is more unbiased than the Ring Magazine too, possible Fightnews as well). Even on Boxrec was Vitaly Klitschko ranked at place 1, not only in 2004, but also from 2011 till 2013 (ahead of his brother and Powetkin).:deal
Click to expand...

TBRB ranked Wlad 1 and Povetkin 2.

The closeness of the Mosley Cotto fight and the defeat to Williams is exactly why it wasn't 1v2.

I kinda think you're just trolling now tbh.

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Why you repeat the same nonsense (bull****) over a over like a record with spread?:nut

It seems I did a mistake; as I thought you are a hater, but you appear now as a fool.:think

Again Klitschko became "Ring Magazine champion" 2009 (vs. Ruslan Tschagajew, who was ranked at 3), but he fought Powetkin in 2013, when was Vitaly Klitschko ranked at 1 (not his brother). Wladimir Klitschko has never fought against the best other Heavyweight boxer (as this was his brother, at least from 2008 - 2013).

Cotto was ranked at 1, Margarito at 2 and Mosley either on 3 or 4, in summer 2008. The reasons for that I've mentioned previous, if you are able to read (and especially to understand). Your whole subject and criterias are actual pretty dumb.
Click to expand...

Who do you think I hate?

I don't care when the ring crowned a champion.

Show me the rankings you refer to in summer 2008 please.

If it's too dumb please leave the thread.

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

*Update* I have it under good authority that we can also include Larry Holmes and Michael Spins as Ali officially announced his retirement prior to facing Holmes, and Larry, just like Vitali never partook in a 1v2 match up.

I did think his fight with Shavers in the rematch was 1v2 but I was wrong and can admit that.

So with that being said, Holmes is my new pick for this thread, followed closely by Vitali.

Dubblechin · Aug 11, 2016

lufcrazy said: ↑

*Update* I have it under good authority that we can also include Larry Holmes and Michael Spins as Ali officially announced his retirement prior to facing Holmes, and Larry, just like Vitali never partook in a 1v2 match up.

I did think his fight with Shavers in the rematch was 1v2 but I was wrong and can admit that.

So with that being said, Holmes is my new pick for this thread, followed closely by Vitali.
Click to expand...

This post sums up this entire train wreck.

You WANT us to follow the Ring ratings, but you don't want us to follow the Ring rules at any time but a narrow window you like and you don't want us to follow who the Ring crowned champs ... yet the Ring rules at the time and who they crowned directly impacted the their ratings.

Worst thread ever. :roll:

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

Dubblechin said: ↑

This post sums up this entire train wreck.

You WANT us to follow the Ring ratings, but you don't want us to follow the Ring rules at any time but a narrow window you like and you don't want us to follow who the Ring crowned champs ... yet the Ring rules at the time and who they crowned directly impacted the their ratings.

Worst thread ever. :roll:
Click to expand...

No i want you to discus who the best HW is from the list given.

You make an excellent point in the penultimate paragraph though. It's a point I have issue with myself. The ring might have awarded a champ on a 1v3 basis (which I am in disagreement about) but because I use their rankings (until October 2012) the man they crowned champ is their default number 1, until they decided to change the rules again or stop awarding. I still haven't found solice with that particular issue so thanks for bringing it up.

The time frame from when 1v2 should be insisted upon, I incorrectly said the 80's, I should have said 1963. It isn't about me and what I want though, on that you're wrong. What I want is no fracture of titles and 1 generally recognised champion. A guy who wins a 1v2 match up still isn't always generally recognised nor is always the man who beats him. What I actually want is the media to stop giving false credit to anyone who wins a title belt.

But yes if you want to call it a contradiction I can live with that. I do use the ring rankings before October 2012. No I do not always recognise the ring champions before October 2012.

If I move beyond that, I would assume you would agree that Holmes and Vitali are the two best who failed to win a 1v2 fight after 1963. Who do you think wins and why? And would you favour the winner over Ibeabuchi?

McGrain · Aug 11, 2016

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

McGrain said: ↑

Click to expand...

I tried to prevent the derailing but failed miserably :-(

Partly cos I'm in correspondence with Stoney and lineage is all we discuss :good

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

McGrain said: ↑

Dubblechin - who do you think was the best fighter to have beaten the lineal champion when he was in possession of the lineal title, OR who beat the #1 heavyweight as ranked by Ring magazine whilst the #2 ranked by ring magazine, or beat the #2 heavyweight as ranked by Ring magazine while the #1 ranked by ring magazine at a time when no lineal heavyweight champion was in possession of that title?
Click to expand...

Literally couldn't have been any clearer a question.

sweetsci · Aug 11, 2016

lufcrazy said: ↑

*Update* I have it under good authority that we can also include Larry Holmes and Michael Spins as Ali officially announced his retirement prior to facing Holmes, and Larry, just like Vitali never partook in a 1v2 match up.

I did think his fight with Shavers in the rematch was 1v2 but I was wrong and can admit that.

So with that being said, Holmes is my new pick for this thread, followed closely by Vitali.
Click to expand...

The Ring - November 1979
as of September 8, 1979

Champion: Vacant
1. Larry Holmes (WBC)
2. Gerrie Coetzee
3. Earnie Shavers
4. John Tate
5. Mike Weaver
6. Leroy Jones
7. Lorenzo Zanon
8. Ken Norton
9. Alfredo Evangelista
10. Scott LeDoux

BTW Ring ratings aren't the be-all-and-end-all. But 1) they're from a well-known and historically highly-regarded publication (with a slip-up or two over the years); 2) they're miles better than the WBC/WBA/IBF, at least after 1975; 3) I have many typed up in a document and can pull them out for discussions like these. :rasta

lufcrazy · Aug 11, 2016

sweetsci said: ↑

The Ring - November 1979
as of September 8, 1979

Champion: Vacant
1. Larry Holmes (WBC)
2. Gerrie Coetzee
3. Earnie Shavers
4. John Tate
5. Mike Weaver
6. Leroy Jones
7. Lorenzo Zanon
8. Ken Norton
9. Alfredo Evangelista
10. Scott LeDoux

BTW Ring ratings aren't the be-all-and-end-all. But 1) they're from a well-known and historically highly-regarded publication (with a slip-up or two over the years); 2) they're miles better than the WBC/WBA/IBF, at least after 1975; 3) I have many typed up in a document and can pull them out for discussions like these. :rasta
Click to expand...

You're database really impresses me sir :good

Hhascup as every ring ring magazine iirc

lufcrazy · Aug 12, 2016

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Likely Dr. Vitaly Klitschko (as you keep to deny that he was linear champion but you recognize his brother as one).

It isn't necessary for me, as it is pretty obvious after Williams lost to Quintana and moved up to Middleweight (fighting Kolle) and Margarito destroyed IBF champion Cintron in the meantime, was who the highest ranked welterweight next to Cotto.

When you don't care about there champions and real rankings, how can you determine who were the best boxers according to these publications?:huh:blood

In september 2013 was Wladimir Klitschko there regarded as the champion, Vitaly Klitschko was ranked at 1 and Alexander Powetkin at 2 at the best (so he wasn't one of the two highest placed or his opponent was not on place 1). While he became this honour in june 2009, when he was ranked at place 1, his brother at 2 and Ruslan Tschagajew (who was his opponent when, after Haye chickened out) was ranked at 3. So there didn't fight the best against the second best heavyweight (not in 2009 nor in 2013).

By the way was Mosley vs. Forrest I most likely for the Ring Magazine trophy already (as the "Viper" was before that IBF champion).

This thread is one of the most little sense making, since a certain while.:deal
Click to expand...

Vitali is a great fighter, a shoe in for the HOF and easily one of the best 15 HW boxers in history, what is there to hate?

If it's obvious just show me the rankings.

I don't care about who they awarded the belt to. I do care about their rankings up until 2012.

Wlad v Povetkin was 1v2.

Mosley v Forrest was 1v3 but the rematch was 1v2.

Not everyone cares about me lineage, that's part of the problem imo.

lufcrazy · Aug 14, 2016

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

There's no need to have read the rankings, as I only need a little bit common sense to know about it (or to have followed boxing at that time in Welterweight).

Wladimir Klitschko wasn't ranked there, because he was the champion, Vitaly Klitschko was at 1 in 2013 (Boxrec had him even ahead of his brother since Adamek), so he was in front of Powetkin (except you are speaking about Wladimir Powetkin, but who had only 2 pro fights). So Alexander Powetkin was technical recognized as third best heavyweight, when he fought Wladimir Klitschko (just as was already Ruslan Tschagajew in 2009, but he was even the lineal WBA champion in opposite to Powetkin to have been just regular champion).

Who shall be higher than Forrest when; Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis or Antonio Margarito?:blood:huh They had actual a worse record in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Check the rankings yourself.

I actually much prefer Vitali to Wlad. It's just circumstances meant Wlad achieved more.

Log in or Sign up

The best HW never to hold the lineal title.

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

sweetsci Well-Known Member Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

The best HW never to hold the lineal title.

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

sweetsci Well-Known Member Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member