The best I`ve faced: Hagler (the ring magazine)

Tommy was more experienced at 154 than at 147, but he in my mind had more power at 147.. If you take Minchillo into consideration and Benitez, although Wilfred was not hit too cleanly by Tommy. I am not sure if Tommy outboxing Ray has to do with Hagler. Marvin did not have the jab that Hearns did to stop Ray from boxing. Ray didn't want his ass kicked by Hagler? In 1982? I think Ray needed a break. I don't think he was a natural fighter who wanted to have a career boxing all the time. Hearns and Hagler and Duran were more natural fighters.

 

yeah but when Hearns didn't fight him in 1982 he did his little thing about cutting off his pinky. What were they going to do? They were moving up, but the fact is they did something Hagler never even attempted which is fight Michael Spinks.

 

here did I say I valued Howard Cosell's opinion? Now, you're making this up. Please don't do that. I value Cosell as a blow by blow guy, not a boxing expert.

I've already made points, and you can't refute one of them.

1 ) The judges said Leonard won
2 ) The Media, in general, said Leonard won
3 ) Punch stats say Leonard won.
4 ) 3 years out of the Ring for Leonard. Ring rust is never easy.

On Hagler vs Hearns, it was a quick battle, not a long war, and mostly Hagler landing. I'd have to re-watch Hagler vs Mugabi, I recall Hagler boxing and playing it safe early. Mugabi proved to have a glass jaw after this fight

On closed door fights, they mean little without the film and I suspect most were just a good sparring session

^^ That changes nothing I wrote.

1 ) The judges said Leonard won.
2 ) The Media, in general, said Leonard won, backing the judges up.
3 ) Punch stats say Leonard won, backing up all of the above. On boxing punch stats predict the winner something like 90% of the time.

You have nothing out there via majority on any of the above three sources that says Hagler won. Pick on Cosell if you must, I'm sure I could throw out a Hagler card too.

4 ) 3 years out of the Ring for Leonard. Ring rust is never easy. And let's not forget his eye injury.

Boxers prepare and have camps. This is nothing new. Exactly who did Leonard bring in that could mimic Marvin Hagler?

Hagler wasn't that old. Leonard just made him look that way.

 

You didn't refute anything I said...

1) The judges weren't unanimous. As stated above, it includes one judge having a train wreck of a scorecard, so how seriously can you take that?
2) Some in the media said Leonard won. Among the scorecards you posted, barely 50% had him winning. It's even less when you include the other opinions on the fight that I noted, which you seem to disregard.
3) Fights are judged on rounds, not punch stats. We don't add up all the punches at the end and then announce the winner.
4) 14 years of ringwear for Hagler and two recent wars with hard-hitting opponents. Hagler also had a recurring back injury which had delayed several of his fights. That's not easy to overcome either. What was Leonard doing in his 14th year as a pro and in his 67th fight?

That's like saying who could Hagler spar with that would replace Leonard? The intention was to help shake off the ring rust by replicating a real fight, which it did.

Hagler was showing signs of slowing down several years prior to Leonard.

 

how can Tommy have more power at 147 when at 154 he's packing more mass in his legs, hips, forearms, lats, shoulders, biceps ?

what you confuse as more power is really a sorry lot of welters on the way out. even Weston didnt go anywhere when Tommy hit him and he hit him plenty

the rest including Espada were also rans broken apart by Cuevas in title fights

Minchillo does not fall into that category. Sutherland was a light heavy, & Benitez was in top form

So how do you explain Duran & Hutchins?

and there goes your whole theory. wrong again as usual

and what do you mean by "natural fighter"

sounds like something you picked up by some fat lazy sports writer who pulled it out of his behind, similar to "Hagler was a manufactured fighter built piece by piece. HBut what happens when you start pulliing the pieces out?"

these stupid M***** F******s are such idiots, they dont realize that's what you call discipline and training, like our military

now let's talk specifics rather than BS concocted by the general sports writer that is better geared towards women's gymnastics than the sport of boxing. You couldnt be more wrong about marvin's jab, saying that Tommy's jab is superior?

which is why I said earlier that you really dont know anything about Marvin including his status as a contender. you just dont have the feel for this fighter

and I invited you to divulge wht you know of him, and predictably declined

your last claim confirms you know next to nothing about Marvin ad are no judge of his abilities

 

you think Ray needed a break? From what, the Bruce Finches of the world???

this proves once again you wont come clean about your own man. you need to fess up because your excuses "I think Ray needed a break" is one of the worst I've come across on this forum

 

Yeah? what about Hagler's sparring partners the month before? They made Marvin look old before Leonard did. How do you explain that?

 

more power relative to other 147 pound guys than relative to the 154 pound guys. Many guys can take punches, but they are still knocked out. That is like saying Pinklon Thomas didn't go anywhere with Tyson until round 5, or Bruno who was on a TKO. Hutchings? Not a very good fighter but Tommy looked good. Hutchings was trained by Noah Cruz. Enough said. And worked is Jackie McCoy out of Westminster boxing club, even thought I think he was from San Jose.. Enough said about that. . Hearns had good power, but at welterweight I think he was a better puncher in relative terms. Tommy's jab was better than Marvin's. As Duran ask Leonard. Roldan? Probably not. Tommy blasted him out. Yes . You are spewing idiocy. General sports writers blah blah blah, which is the same thing they would say about Hearns and how he beat Duran. Hearns beat Duran with speed and countering with that speed. I have said many times I admire Hagler, probably more than you do.. What are you saying about Marvin? Bring something up logical? I know exactly how he fought and his best and worst fights, and his power, which was underrated. But his jab was not close to Hearns and neither was his opposition. The way you beat Marvin is by making him miss and making him pay. Hearns made him pay but he did not make him miss which was dumb of Tommy's part. It was a great fight and a stupid fight on Tommy's part. Marvin relied on great physical strength and decent power and switching and a good reach to control most of the action in fights.

 

I stand by that. I think the Hearns fight and the Duran fights added to Benitez, 4 tough fights if not physically the Duran 2 fight-mentally, it was tough on him. And the Kalule fight where he was hit a little bit, then Hearns. Ray was not as tough outside the ring as inside. He was not a natural fighter who loved to engage and risk losing. He had more fear of losing than the other 3 in the fab 4, and I think he knew his luck my run out if he kept on the pace he was on. Retina issues or not, he was looked on as great and had the HBO gig, he could sit back and wait. And he did that. Kevin Howard was a test, but when Marvin looked bad with Mugabi, rate was an opportunist.

 

so what if he was hit a little bit? what is he made up paper mache doll that he cant take a hit?

and the Duran fights were two years earlier! if it was too much for him, then he shouldnt have rushed Duran into a rematch

and the Hearns fight was held a full year after Duran, but you act as tho he was fighting every week

so that's three big names spaced over three years. that's some exhausting schedule! Good thing he didnt fight in Ray Robinson's day!

it's like I said, youre making excuses for him and they arent even good excuses

you dont believe it yourself

the only believable answer is he enjoyed being hailed as a great fighter adored by the media, and didnt want to throw it away by having the whole world see him knocked out by the world's best p4p fighter (Hagler of course)

 

No they didn't fight Michael Spinks.

 

Why would Hagler want to face Spinks when he could make big money fighting guys at 160 ?
The undisputed middleweight championship was always historically more prestigious and lucrative than the title at 175, that's the truth.
Hagler wasn't even a big middleweight, he was perfect at 160.

 

I thought the 1982 Hagler-Hearns fight was actually scheduled, so for whatever reason it didn't happen, I can understand Hagler being annoyed for missing out.

 

I think he climbed as many mountains as he wanted to at that point and he was smart enough to know it would get harder. Hearns rematch, maybe Pryor. Hagler. all tough fights. I think he would have had a hard time beating Hagler in 1983 when the fight would have happened, but stylistically I think he wins a decision but with the eye he really was not that tough a guy mentally and he wanted that rest to see how it all turns out With Hagler?. Lateral movement and countering and moving and not lying on the ropes, less than he did in 1987. Ray did not like getting hit and almost losing. He did his best to get wins and he worked his ass off not to get beaten, but he knew how close he was to getting beaten and losing to Duran, hell with Benitez and Hearns, hit hard by Kalule which should have been a walk in the park. And Kalule was a tough fight. Not an easy fight. I think he had a tough 2 years and 3 if you consider from Benitez to the announcement and he wanted a break and to enjoy his career. 4 big fights spaced over 2 years, and if you put in Kalule. 5 tough fighters in 2 years in 2 divisions. That is not easy for a rather young fighter. What excuses? I know Ray Leonard and know that he wanted a rest, and with the eye injury, he felt he might be too cautious to really be able to do what he wanted with all that pressure. So he took a rest and thought he might maybe come back someday.

 

Hmmm he felt he won. Many felt he won. Hagler doesnt hate Leonard. Hagler hates that Leonard got the nod.