The best super heavies. Can they be outboxed?

Bowe was outboxed and outthought by Tubbs, but I do agree with the essence of the thread.

 

And, as anticipated, most of the discussion between supposed historians in this thread has assumed that there's this static unchanging sport called "boxing". :verysad

 

' The brothers GRIM are clearly the best big men but their opposition has been woeful imo.Ali outboxes them both imo.and Lewis who would not be mobile enough to keep up with Ali .Bowe was too easy to hit to beat Ali

 

Can they be outboxed by a smaller heavyweight?

The answer to that is yes, but it is probably going to take an exceptional fighter to do it eg Holyfield over Bowe.

 

If you think the Klits are better boxers than Ali we have nowhere to go with this discussion.

 

1. "Bowe is 6' 5" and a super-heavyweight"-----So. My sentence refers to Zumbrum as being 6' and built up on steroids. I don't see what point you are making. No one disputes that Bowe is a super-heavyweight.

2. What you say about height is true but it always has been not only at heavyweight but all the other weights. How did a 5' 6" Basilio defeat Robinson who certainly was skilled and had a good jab? How did Al Brown and Sandy Saddler lose to men much shorter? An aging Emile Griffith, his best years a memory, gave the 6' Carlos Monzon a close fight? How did people like Tiger and Fullmer succeed against men much taller? How did Greb defeat the much taller Tunney? How did Walker hold the much taller Sharkey to a draw? How did the 5' 11" Frazier defeat the 6' 4" Bugner, or the 6' 3" Ali, both of whom were certainly skilled. Ernie Terrell was actually taller than Wlad Klitschko, but he lost plenty of rounds to short men. What is the difference? I think two:

A. Modern heavyweight boxers are not taught and are not very good at fighting on the inside. Pro boxing has basically become amateur boxing, sparring matches at a distance. This favors height, no doubt. If this trend toward sissy boxing continues, boxing will die, at least in the United States. Vitali versus Gomez should have been a fairly good matchup but was sided into an obscure cable channel, and justifiably. Gomez turned out to be bloated, slow, a one handed fighter with no jab or ability or willingness to fight on the inside. The fight was boringly one-sided. The contenders I have seen challenging the Klitschko's recently, Austin, Thompson, Peter, and Gomez, are depressingly limited fighters.

B. The major contributing factor here is referees who simply do not allow inside fighting and yell 'break' the instant the shorter man closes. My attitude is that only the tall gawky "basketball" type young men should even consider boxing. Why compete in a sport in which the tall man's advantages--height and reach--are allowed, but the short man's advantages--a lower center of gravity, short arms which allow one to work the body inside--are foreclosed by the referees for reasons not clear to me. Body punches hurt but they probably do not create the long-term damage head punches do. I would think boxing officials would encourage body work.

 

Mendoza,

Ali was way past his prime against norton lyle and young. Ali weighed wut 230lb of fat when he fought young? talk about overweight. the 1964-1967 ali was a much faster sharper boxer than the one of the mid 1970s

 

I just don't know where you got the idea from that Jones and Lyle outjabbed Ali. There's just no merit to that. Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab and Young to some extent (but it was more the counter right), though.

 

Don't try to use facts when discussing Ali with Mendoza ... it just doesn't suit the agenda. Again we hear that Ali had trouble with jabbers at all stages of his career, yet, no mention of Ali taking Liston's jab completely out of the equation, as well as the jab of Terrell.

Nah, all you needed to do to trouble Ali was throw a good jab, just like all it took to trouble Holmes was an overhand right, Tyson if you stood up to him, Louis if you used your feet, Lewis if you cracked the chin, Dempsey if you were Black, Duran if you stayed on the outside and so on and so forth.

 

Well put.