The best super heavies. Can they be outboxed?

This is true, but it's also true that he acted on the verge of casual when he felt superior. You can see this kind of attitude against for example Cooper, Patterson and Foster.

As for Lyle, though, I think rope-a-dope seemed like a good tactic since his shape weren't quite what it should be and since Lyle reminded in some aspects of Foreman. I do feel it was kind of the lazy man's choice, though, and it clearly didn't work. But when Lyle didn't get suckered into it, Ali became more active, found the range with his right after a while and eventually won.

This is my reading of the fight, but it doesn't seem like we will agree. But using Lyle as an example of how Ali struggled with big men with some skill is flawed for other reasons as well. He clearly didn't have much problem with Terrell and Bugner for example, the two guys he met who best combined size with skill. And their jabs were both better than Lyle's.

With that said I see prime Wlad and Lewis as very dangerous opponents for any version of Ali. Bowe wouldn't be a walk in the park either, but Vitaly might just be too slow and clumsy for Ali in his prime.

 

Yes but for a guy to fight at heavyweight at under 200lbs or even 210 today he prety much has to be a former middleweight.

The fact is that even a light heavyweight can bulk up to over 210 today while that was not an option in the 1950s.

 

I think they were both more skilled, especially with better jabs. While Lyle was more naturallly agressive he wasn't that active, though. It's not like he chased Ali or anything, he was clearly less agressive against him not only than Frazier, Cooper and Chuvalo, but also than Norton. The clear edge Lyle had on Bugner and Terrell was power, but he didn't seem to bother Ali too much with it.

Well, we read this fight differently, but I'm in agreement with you that the skilled giants are a very hard prospect for anyone h2h, especially when it comes to outboxing them. The only ones I give any real chance of outboxing prime versions of Lewis and Wlad is Holmes and Ali in their primes. Wlad might be even harder to outbox than Lewis.

 

Actually, I should mention Liston as someone who could really bother Lewis, Wlad etc as well. His very long ramrod jab could very well be a nightmare for these guys. They're not as quick or mobile as Ali and Machen, and they will have virtually no reach advantage against Liston, but presents nice big targets.

 

Lyle did not force the tempo; that was all Ali's doing. It might not have been the right decision, but it was definitely entirely his not Ron Lyle's. Watch Ali before the fight. He can be seen screaming "mirage" and "rope-a-dope" to the broadcasters.

It was obnoxious of him, really. It was quite foolish to believe that such a strategy would work again, given the infamy of the fight in Zaire. It was fairly obvious the rope-a-dope was a one-time get-out-of-jail-free card, whether devised or improvised, but what can you say? I think he fell in love with his own legend after the Rumble. Isn't it funny he predicted his opponent to fall in the exact same round that Foreman did?

Lyle was ahead before the stoppage. That much is plain to everybody. I have to agree with Bokaj though. He was winning more on the things Ali was failing to do, and not because he was preventing Ali from doing these things either.

 

Well Terrell was meant to be a good jabber. They were all saying this leading up to the Ali fight. I haven't seen enough of him to give a fair verdict. But Ali's movement at his peak nulified a lot of good jabbers e.g liston. he was more flatfooted in his 70s fights andv Lyle and clowned about doing the rope-a-dope which Lyle didn't fall for. i think in some fights ali only did enough to win and definitely in his later fights but that wasn't the same guy that Terrell was unfortunately facing

 

Terrell was so intent on damage limitation in that fight that he really didn't use his jab that much. There is that famous moment when Ali slips three, four jabs and then a right while standing still and with his hands at the waist, but mostly Terrell just concentrated on surviving behind that peek-a-boo defenses.

I would actually say that Williams used his jab with much better purpose. And while he was obviously not what he had been, it's clear from the footage that his jab still was good, but Ali was too fleet footed back then. Williams did the right thing, tried to use the jab to force Ali to the ropes, but he was just outmatched speedwise. In contrast to Terrell he took the risk, though.

 

Vitali is defintley way to slow and clumsy for Ali. With the way Vitali keeps his left low, Ali will do his famous double right lead(he did to folley) right into vitali's eye opening up a huge gash.

 

Ali who had been out of the ring for 3 1/2 years, didn't have the same legs or headmovement was not near prime ... nope this is where we disagree. Yes, he was a very good, world class fighter, but I cannot call a fighter that reliant on his athletic gifts, who'd missed the best years of his youth and looks to have lost a step on film a near prime fighter.

Ali could still produce the goods because he was an elite boxer, but did he look anywhere close to his '67 ability, nope ... not in my honest opinion.

Hagler didn't **** away rounds as he was actually trying to do something against someone so comparatively superior to Lyle in skillset that it kinda nulls and voids the attempted comparison ... Ali developed a very nasty habit of coming into bouts in either horrible shape, doing just enough to get by, fighting to the level of the opposition, pandering to the crowd and allowing himself to lose winnable rounds through sheer lack of workrate. Lyle didn't give Ali anything so superior that he couldn't outbox him ... Ali just went to the ropes for fun and invited Lyle in ... or pranced about and threw nothing ... when Ali opened up on Lyle, Lyle was vulnerable and yes, Ali got aggressive, but he stopped him ... he did what he was supposed to do ... IMO, he could've done himself and the viewer a favour, stop pissing about and do it earlier in the bout. The feeling I get from watching the fight in the context of the stoppage is that Ali could've turned it on and overwhelmed him if he chose to do so and not that Lyle was so overly good that it took Ali several rounds to work him out ... if you disagree, so be it.