The better fight: Fight of the Century or Thrilla in Manilla?

Cool

So books reference it. I wonder who was there to report this or here this. This is not documented on film. I haven't read any books on the rivalry specifically as there is little need to.

Could you show anything on film of him saying this? Because really, as it stands on film Ali just called Joe a gorilla. And he named tons of different fighters different animals. I understand the racial implication, but why does that mean Ali was saying purely out of racist bigotry? That doesn't really make much sense if you think it. He could have been much more creative. And besides, Ali downed Joe not for being black but for being the white champion. I genuine think he thought Joe looked like a gorilla. He went through all the stuffed animals and statues to prove that. Not to just be racist towards his own race. :nut

Yep. I seem to know understand Ali better than you. Is it possible that Ali was trying to dehumanize Joe but calling him a gorilla? Sure... is it possible he may have actually thought Joe looked like one? Absolutely... is it possible he called Joe just to dehumanize him and didn't think he looked like? I suppose, but Ali's clowning was generally through honesty.

No, is it okay to call Patterson an uncle tom? Patterson the white man's champ? Liston a bear? George a mummy? I mean really, we can go down the whole line. And this isn't about what's right or not it's about Ali on his hatred... or should I say non-hatred of Joe.

I have no interest of your opinion of my opinion on your article. Nobody likes a jackass.

I

:good Pat yourself on the back.

He could have called everyone the N word in the privacy of his home for all I know. But openly in the press? In the 74 Parkinson's show Ali talks about how he didn't call Joe the N word and how he called him an Uncle Tom... and he said it he did because he was.

I'm said many facts and many opinions based off of my knowledge on the subject. You hadn't sourced anything till this post. I gave you f*cking quotes for God sakes and I haven't presented any facts. I've even presented FACTS that Ali said he didn't hate Joe frazier leading up to the Thrilla and later on in his life. I've stated Dundee has and others around Ali have said the same. You want me to start citing now? I'm not going to site for an indecent jackass like you eitherway.

This how I now know you have so much trouble comprehending, using logic, and analyzing data, information, and knowledge. I never even implied that Ali was harder on Patterson than Frazier. I did imply that Ali was hard on a lot of people and did admit he was harder on Frazier for LOGICAL reasons you're either willing to accept or ignore. It's pretty much your call. However, Ali didn't them nor Joe.

No, critical thinking 101.

Ali was spiteful with Terrel. Punished him, verbally abused him. And never did it after or before or laugh. Watch any tape. He gets upset, now, and whether that's an act or not who knows. I'm sure he was fine afterwards. In the ring he seems pissed. Ali never got that angry with Joe it seemed. Why? Probably because he didn't hate him. Did he respect Joe? I don't think so... not until after their fights.

You don't know if Ali knew of those death threats. Threatened him with a firearm? GTFO. I'm done with you, you're a joke.

Prove it on film. He could have called dozens of other fighters the same. Even if he did, it doesn't prove he hated him. And you're starting to get mad because you can't prove that. Your worthless subjective opinion is meaningless and all your citing doesn't do **** in terms of what's the truth. Wake up and go outside the world. If you think a black calling another a black the N word is bad then you need to get out more. Publically it's another level. But he never did it publically as far as I've known.

No you don't. You thought he was threatening Joe with a firearm.

I was being satirical dimwit. Your inferencing skills are for ****.

I'm sure it is Mr. 25000 + posts.

My source is from the Thrilla documentary. I don't know how you know or come to the conclusions that Ali knew the press wasn't going to be there. I feel the documentary made something of that. "Press wasn't there. Clear it wasn't for publicity." Maybe he was doing it to get under Frazier's skin anyway? Does that matter? The lady that was with Joe for the course of Manilla and throughout his career was so suprised when saw no press. "Cameras were all over your face right when you stepped out of the door. Where was everyone, where was the press." Whether Ali knew that there was no coverage that day is unknown. Knowing Ali and how he loves to be like that in front of the camera I bet he would prefer that. However, knowing he likes to clown with Joe it wouldn't matter.

Ali's guide from Manilla said that Ali said, "Brotha (Referring to him), he liked to call me brotha. He said brotha, let's go mess with Joe Frazier. Come on." And that's basically the beginning of that incidence according to him. Doesn't sound spiteful or hatred filled at all. It's on the same documentary.

Referenced. I'm not writing an essay. It's backed, it's just not cited. Do you want me to site previous quotes/statements? I don't feel you're worth wasting time over at this point.

False

You British? Things are becoming clearer now.

According to Parkinson he didn't. You thought Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm. At least I can ****ing deduce the information I digest.

If the things I have said are incorrect than it shouldn't be "unlikely" that the thing I've said are truthful, it should be known. Just trapped you in your own logic.

 

It really baffles me how you deny fact. The man just gave you quotes from Ali which are pretty well known and documented; and yet that's still not good enough. I known that I have watched many documentaries on their rivalry and I know that what McGrain said is fact. You have a totally false persepctive on this topic.

 

Ali the clown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stRrXgS2X40

1:16



I think Ali was worse to Frazier up until FOTC, personally. I think he was most hostile then. I also think as he got older he matured more. Before FOTC he mimicked him calling him "dumb" and doing an impersonation of him clearly to belittle him. I think the set up was perfect. The contrast in styles, in what they represented partly on how Ali panned that out. Ali was very confident and he saw the scene with a champion who hadn't beat him. So he knew a perfect situation he could make out of it. Publicly, and financially and as a stage for a fight.

Ali on Parkinson's in 1974.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L4MiGySTy4

Around 6 minutes in. Ali says he never called Joe the N word. Is he lieing?

 

What facts have I denied? All that I have denied is that I've yet to see that on film. What I have seen on film is Ali saying otherwise.

How is my perspective the false one? Even if I'm slightly mis-informed on specifics how does that make my perspective false? Somewhat of an arrogant thing to say, no? I mean, my perspective is that Ali clowned a lot and even if he went too far (Which he did and I admit) I still don't think he hated Frazier. Tell me now what's so false about that?

Ali said he loved Frazier and didn't hate Frazier constantly. I bet you you can't find him saying that he "hates" Frazier on film. And I can find Ali saying that Frazier is a good guy on film before their 3rd fight. And afterwards.

Dundee said the "kid had no malice and didn't hate Joe" on Ringside Ali and Ringside Top 10 Heavyweights & Ringside Rivarly.

Ali's doctor said he "didn't hate Frazier. It's a 1 sided hate."

But my perspective is false, poor, and wrong? I guess it's just me. But even if we get caught up in the littles of this and that it still doesn't change the foundation of my argument.

And what I do is now is 75-90% of the time Ali clowned on Frazier he was half-laughing while doing so.

 

If that's what you think then you need to study up on this topic. I can't help you. I suggest that you watch the Thrilla in Manilla documentary.

 

ROFL I've seen it 10 times and I've cited it as a reference multiple times. Can you please read through the thread before interjecting.

By the way, the documentary is very biased and slanted.

P.S. Sweet new Smokin' Joe avatar

 

Can you please do your research before posting? The facts are there and you have failed to recognize them. You just choose to not to do any research and deny the facts while saying you're right when you clearly aren't. BTW, it shows how disgusting Ali acted towards Frazier.

 

Brilliant, you cant beat an Ali interview, pure entertainment. :good

 

Okay, going to concede the N word. Not conceding the point.



When you tag this word onto "White Man's" it takes on a deeply bigoted tone. The way Ali used the word with Frazier was unique.



I think it's pretty obvious that Ali wasn't being racist to his own race.

It's not right. He did the same toward Patterson and Terrel. Yes, he was harshest to Frazier. Did Ali hate Patterson? Terrel? Frazier? All, or just Frazier? Or did Ali go too far in his ways/religious conviction?

That's quite an assumption. I know tons on Ali, read tons of biographies, autobiographies and film. The N word must be specifically on the book between their bouts. So you know more regarding Ali and Frazier fuel. That's fine, I don't blame Ali for not mentioning in his autobiography.

How is it contradictory? It's clowning, and clowning can be cruel. It's honest to Ali because Ali although going too far still jokes about certain things in regards to what he may think. It's kind of like trying to be funny out of a situation that someone believes in in regards to someone else.

But do you think Joe called Joe Frazier solely to degrade him as being inferior or what have you. Why call Liston a bear or Patterson a rabbit? I'm not saying it's right, but I do think Ali thought Joe resembled a gorilla... for whatever it's worth.

I haven't read any books on it. I know what Ali said, others said, and I know the press of it all.

So one example and that makes me out of the picture. Makes all the knowledge I do have invalid?

But, is there any proof he didn't use this word towards Patterson or Terrel. I don't doubt it now hearing what he called Joe.

It's more extreme. But the circumstance was unique and that would obviously add fuel to it. I mean, Ali beat him and Ali was "holding his belt" place Ali saw what he represented. It's a Patterson X3 due to style, personality, representation, and circumstance in Ali's mind. You have to acknowledge this, too.

On film, I see nothing but seething anger. From the pre-fight to fight. He seems upset. With Joe he can call him a gorilla or what not and laugh about it. See the difference?

Not as much when he was clowning with Joe, that's for sure.

So you think Ali knew of the death threats and kept it going despite knowing this threatened Frazier's family? This is a big thing to say, and basically that's what you're saying. I want a yes or no answer on this. Because really, this assumption is unfavorably to Ali's already controversial character.

So your opinion that Ali hates Joe is not subjective? That's what we are getting at. Don't get too caught up into one specific.

Bantering? As for the second one, yes that is worse.

That's all in how you perceive/handle things. I've heard blacks say it jokingly and then more cruely. Most of the time no fight happens or no one gets legitimiately upset. In few times it can bother some more than others. That's normal. The "banter" is how you handle it.

Could you point me to some online source/text just out of curoisity.

You honestly, geniunely think Ali was threatening Joe with a firearm? Come on man. I refer to it as an incident because everything is an incident. You said threatening Ali with a firearm. As if he was actually going to kill him before the fight or something. Come on this sort of reasoning is worse than missing the N word which is something that you can never find on film. But I'm not going to harp on this and try to tear down the oppositions cause just because of this one line.

It's only a moot point if you don't try to slant it like you have as some sort of sick way of Ali trying to berate Joe because he hates them.

Good thing Britian isn't a race . I was asking because culturally I can understand how there may be some differences between somethings. That's all... and that could alter our perspective/outlook on things.

No, the disease.

Oh boy, you are confused. Ok, as George Carlin would say. Everything is an incident. Much like everything is a situation. When police respond to an emergance, they're responding to an emergency situation because everything is a situation. The situation/incident label is generally repetive, in this case it wasn't (How else could I describe it). I do think it was a firearm. I don't think Ali was threatening Joe with it. Of course, it was Ali stepping over the line like usual. But he wasn't out to kill Joe. I gave you the quote. "Let's go mess with Joe Frazier." He didn't say "Let's go harrass Joe Frazier and hold hostage everyone in the room." He wasn't threatening him.

Thank you.

 

I guess watching the Thrilla isn't good enough then. What else do you got recommend since that was your "source." Seriously, I should've just told you to do more research when you claimed Frazier had superior stamina to Marciano.

I'm not trying to justify how Ali acted towards Frazier. Can you? I can't justify half the things he did with other fighters. Ali was a unique character, very lively and entertaining. You get the good with the bad and people loved him for his antics and fighting skill/athletic ability. He was a poet, a rapper, and the GOAT heavyweight. Now, he did some wrong... lots of wrong. Did some wrong to some people. Did Muhammad Ali hate Joe Frazier? No, I don't think so. OCD is it a fact? No, so why does my research all of a sudden change this position.

All of a sudden I'm ignorant on the whole case because one fact I missed. Jeez, this tells you how much you guys must be holding to a string on this one. Hey OCD, if the Thrilla documentary is your best source recommendation I bet I know more regarding the Ali vs Frazier rivarly/fued.

And how can I be wrong? The main argument is that Ali either hated or didn't hate Frazier. Unless someone had Ali on a lie detector test sometime in his life we can never really know. Disputing the specifics doesn't make me wrong on the subject line. Thank you, have a good day.

 

Watching the actual fight isn't good enough no. Watch the documentary and do your research before you post. Frazier-Marciano was a debateable subject and I wasn't the only one on Frazier's side. But that's beside the point and has nothing to do with this thread and I am done discussing that.

He hated Frazier. You just keep denying facts in which another poster posted. Please, have some maturity, research and then admit you were in the wrong.

OCD? Get the **** outta here. You've resorted to making fun of a screen name on a forum FFS! Real mature. I really think you don't when you don't know of Ali calling Frazier a gorrila, Uncle Tom and a N*****. You are also talking to probably the biggest Frazier fan on the forum along with round15 and MarcianoFrazier so I really think you don't. You're being very ignorant when you can't admit you're wrong.

The subject is heavily reported. Just because it's not on film doesn't mean it's not true. Very naive.