The better fight: Fight of the Century or Thrilla in Manilla?

I told you. I've watched the documentary like 10 times. In fact, I have it on my computer and I used as a source for some of my post. So I guess you disagree with McGrain that I haven't been all subjective since I've used that as an actual reference.

I concede the N word. Can you read up on the thread before making yourself look bad? Besides, you have referenced nothing and if you were in this thread I doubt you would make those claims because you either didn't know or wouldn't have an actual reference to it. Facts, are plural. So what "facts" have I denied?

I actually thought your name was OCDboxer. My bad. What are you talking about? I said Ali called him a gorilla and an uncle tom? Dude, I know more on this subject than you... stop talking out of your ass. You're ignorant for jumping in a thread when you have no idea what's going on.

Whether Ali actually hated Frazier isn't something that can be reported on dip****. This is something we can never actually know for sure unless we had gotten Ali on a lie detector test. Even though we wouldn't know seeing how flawed and immisable those machines are. Are you even reading what's going on in the thread? Am I in a twilight zone here or something?And yes, I know you're a huge Frazier fan. You must be seeing as you take everything I would say for one fighter as being better than him at something as me "knocking" or "insulting" him. You think he beats Tyson in his prime, you think he has more power, stamina, and chin than Marciano. I know you're a fan. You must be to actually believe all 3 of those points.

 

I'll admit, you have give some subjective statements. Good for you.

Ali insulted Frazier. He knew about the death threats to Frazier's family and how his kids were being bullied and beaten up. He still persisted. If you "like" someone or don't have any hate for them, you don't do this.

Dud, you don't know more on this subject..... Dude, you never want to admit when you're wrong.... Dude, you're ignorant because you lack the maturity to admit you are wrong.

Actually, the reports and actions of Ali suggests that he does, ****. I have read pretty much every post that responses me and McGrain. I am not the only one that thinks Frazier beats Tyson in his prime, that's debateable, this subject isn't. I never said he had more power or a better chin than Frazier, don't talk out of your ass. I said he has comparable stamina. Atleast that's debateable, this subject isn't.

 

You said I was wrong ten times. How am I wrong? It's not a fact that Ali hated Joe. It's an opinion. It's subjective and entirely debatable. I'm not wrong, there's nothing to admit. And the only thing I was wrong in I admitted, stop being a dimwit about the entire situation.

I want a source on Ali knowing that his kids were being bullied and knowing the death threats while he persisted. And no, you said he had better stamina. In fact you answered to him having better stamina in the new thread that round 15 made (I believe it was him). Want me to bump it or quote you? You got to be one hell of a jackass to actually argue that something subjective is in fact indisputable. Don't even talk about ignorant.

And where are these "facts" that I denied constantly. I'm still waiting since you've read all the responses (Doubtful since you called me wrong on something that's subjective).

 

FOTC. Seeing that monster left hook decking ali clean was picture perfect

 

For short time before the fight and up until the fight I believe Ali hated Terrel. The severe reaction he got caused Ali to maybe reconsider his judgement. I think he disliked Terrel for a time more than he ever disliked/disdained Frazier. How is something a concession when I never said otherwise? I know he was harshest to Frazier, but he was harsh to other fighters.

No, Ali dehumanized Patterson when he brought carrots to his training camp. I don't want to get into a semantics battle, but Ali was in clown-mode virtually all pre Thrilla in Manilla. When he said "Come on gorilla we in Manilla" he was holding back has laugh. When they brought the stuffed animal around, he was partly laughing. De-humanizing, I suppose if you look at it in that way... AS you should. However, Ali was clowning, no doubt. You can't really say otherwise seeing all the ploys and stuff he does.

Well, you can't deny he had fun with it. I never saw him laugh so much while denigating an opponent.

No, I am not. I'm speaking from what I believe to be Ali's POV on the subject. How did I say it was okay? I just said it wasn't right in the same sentence. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself here...

When responding to OBC on what Ali said. I do, excluding the N word exception. He said I didn't know about the Uncle Tom, Dumb, Gorilla, etc. I mentioned all of these words numerous times. So yes, I did know with that exception. He was basically lieing there.

Fine, but to me that's almost like me saying for you exaggerations with threatening Joe with a firearm would lead me to believe you were biased on the subject. But I don't label, that's always dangerous and presumptious.

So what makes Ali hate Joe is he's the man with his belt and the man who ends up beating him. Am I getting that right because he virtually represents the same as Patterson and I presume you don't think he hated Floyd.

Now Holmes said Ali always joked on the radio show we just had. "After our fight he was just joking and such. Saying I want Holmess again and stuff. He was cool and I learned to not hold grudges or be mad after fights." Very conflicting, eh?

Ah, maybe we can't some resolve here. For me, this shows that Ali did it BECAUSE it bothered Joe. It's look when my cousin used to tease me when I was younger it always upset me. And of course, he teased me the most. Frazier keeps getting burnt and upset and visibly shaken so Ali bantered him out of amusement the most. I think that makes sense? And this is what Ali even says before the Thrilla fight.

Right, but the death threats weren't constant before each bout. Just the 1st. Maybe he found out later?

Okay, so would that make me a liar then?

Ali picked up the gun and started firing shots in the air. He didn't pick up the gun, point it at Smoking Joe and start shooting it at him. Did he perhaps point out the balcony Joe was on? Sure, did he point and shoot at Joe? No. He just shot up in the air. It's careless, but wasn't a legitimately threatening him.

Man you won't even give up ground? Do I really have to go back on how you said something like. "If Ali didn't hate Joe would he point at firearm at Joe with the press not there."

If you would have told it in the quote rather than making your own context so we don't have to badger about whether Ali's intentions where to do it with no press or press or what not. The press part has no bearing on the action for me. Just because the Thrilla doc said otherwise doesn't do anything for me either.

No but you did make claim he "threatened" Joe with the firearm.

So Joe Frazier is dead? :rofl

I wouldn't be threatened if someone pointed a firearm at me, pulled the trigger and I was still perfectly fine! Must mean I was invincible or something... or perhaps holding on to a straw argument :rofl

 

The argument was he was meaner towards Terrel. Like a pure mean-streak. Against Frazier he's harsher but Ali's clowning more. Thus, his intentions and what he conveys seems like he hated Terrel more.

Of course, he took it to the next step with Frazier. But again, I thought I explained why he did and my reason is not because of hate.

No, why do you always make these premature conclusions? It isn't right, but it doesn't seem as spiteful or due to hate.

I'm not justifying it. It's wrong and there's not much else to it. However, I'm rationalizing from maybe Ali's POV. He named all his opponents. He probably understand the racial implications, but he probably didn't care and didn't want to shy away from that. Just like Patterson was the rabbit. Say now if Rabbit was the worst type of racism, I don't think Ali would shine away from that if he thought Patterson did look or fight like a rabbit... which I think he did. Do you get that argument?

Well OBC couldn't come up with another example. He just used words that I already made the same claim to. If you can think of something I missed, I'm more than happy to hear it.

I'm not getting into a semantics debate. I can understand how it appears threatening or gets percieved as threatening. If I were Marvis I would think he was threatening us. But if we understood Ali's head I doubt we would think this. Ali didn't point the gun at Joe and pulled the trigger. Otherwise there would be casualties. He probably just shot it at the air. Don't make blanket statements and then get defensive about it, though.

Right. I think the circumstance led Ali to shout his mouth off more than he would for another opponent. I think he clowned more with Joe because it got under his skin. That doesn't mean he hates him... the same could've happened if Patterson or some other person was champ at the time holding his best. And that person maybe beats him and ends up not liking him. So Ali fires back to get under him. You have to admit, it's incredibly clear Joe didn't like Ali. The other way around is a lot tougher to determine.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying knowing before the 1st fight. The death threats came before the 1st fight. All fight political turmoil and heat dissipated and there were no more death threats for the 2nd or 3rd fight. Ali not knowing before the 1st fight is more likely than not.

I like the new friends angle. It was Joe who thought they were friends. I'm sure Ali just used him as a benefit. And if he was a friend than Ali is a terribly friend. Most likely, Ali didn't see it that way.

Right, I forgot that detail. Makes it even clearer. Yes, I would be threatened if someone pointed a gun at me. I might feel threatened if they were even a friend. But Ali didn't threaten Joe he joked with Joe. How could Ali threaten Joe with no bullets? Maybe Joe felt threatened, but if he possessed zero harm than it's Ali being a clown and not threatening Joe.

It was a joke. You said he pointed the gun at Joe and shot it. That must mean Joe was invincible or something. I remember now hearing the narrators voice about the gun having blanks because the hotel didn't care real bullets. That just went over my head.

No, stop with the blanket gross oversimplification statements. You said Ali threatened Joe with a firearm. The gun had zero bullets, and he shoot blanks. Thus, Ali didn't threaten anybody. Not legitimately. Again, don't want to get in semantics. Obviously anyone who had a gun pointed at them would be threatened but that's because they don't know about the no bullet situation. Ali, on the other hand did. So he couldn't have tried to kill Joe with it if he tried. If it's threatening, Joe must've been in some harm. If it's threatening, then Ali must have said something about coming back with real bullets to kill him. Otherwise it's Ali being Ali clowning and always going to the extreme.



As for this whole discussion. I'm done with it really. You think Ali hated Joe, I don't. You're not going to change my mind, I ain't going to change yours. Just seeing Ali in his expression and what others said and he said on the matter makes me think otherwise. Ali has been not only controversial but cruel many times. He at one point believed that all white men where the devil.

 

Ali defiently knew this, it was widely reported at the time. How could he not know it? You don't like someone if you keep doind what you are doing when it endangers the lives of others.

Frazier having better stamina than Marciano has no relevance to this thread and I am not talking about it anymore; you're clutching at straws.

Here's an excerpt from an article on some comments from Ali:

Tom Payne, Frazier’s bodyguard for the Fight of the Century, said that he “never saw Joe unnerved [by the death threats]”, but those death threats came in waves. His family was also threatened. Joe Frazier took this knowledge on his six mile runs and into the ring where he beat sparring partners mercilessly. “I don’t think anyone could have beaten me that night,” Joe offered recently, and to the fight plan itself in his autobiography, he said this: “What I would do was pound on his kidneys and spleen.” 300 million people saw Frazier do just that. During the fight Frazier became one of the few men to get the better of Ali in the verbal’s. “Don’t you know I’m God,” Ali offered. “God, you’re in the wrong place tonight. I’m kicking ass and taking names.” “I’m going to kill you, ******”, was another offering Muhammad made according to Joe, his response: “Yeah that’s what you got to do. Cause I ain’t going nowhere.” Then, at the final bell, having dumped the butterfly in front of more people than watched the moon landing, “I kicked your ass.”


That's hate my friend.

Full article: http://www.boxingnews24.com/2008/08/the-thirty-year-war-ali-vs-frazier/

 

If Ali knew I think he knew after the death threats were relevant. Pointless since this is all speculation. So saying he kept doing what he did knowing he was endangering the lives of others is kind of a premature conclusion. We don't know that.

Right, I know the whole "Don't you know I'm God." Ali feverishly denies that he said that. So even that's speculation at this point.

 

Those are some pretty hateful qoutes in there. Don't you think? Even if he was "clowning" or "promoting the fight", you don't say those things if you don't hate someone.

It's speculation, but my case is very strong because it would be very hard for Ali not to know that Joe and his family were being threatened, since it was reported.

 

Some those quotes sound like what he said from within the fight (Especially the N word ones which might be why the dispute even arose). And Holmes talked about all the bad things he said to him in the fight he couldn't even say it on the radio. And Ali was fine about it afterwards.

As for the other stuff. Yeah, Ali crossed the line big time. I feel Ali seemed most serious about things he said before FOTC and then till 74. For the Thrilla, it just seems Ali gets a kick out of seeing Joe get mad. I don't see the hatred from Ali. If Ali hated him, then he hated him for a few years and got over it because it's clear that from after retirement he didn't hate him. At least he doesn't show that, and he didn't show it before the Thrilla fight either. Joe on the other hand still wanted to beat him up at the 88 Champions for Dinner . Now, I'm not saying he isn't to be rightfully bitter or upset. As Joe said, "I don't think anyone can be in my shoes. And if they did, it wouldn't fit."

As for the whole threatening family thing. When exactly does it get reported publicly? That should answer that, then.

 

Fight of the Century in terms of historic fights pips Manilla, but Manilla wins my vote because of the action, intensity, workrate, heart and will of the two fighters. Both men went to the well so often during that fight.

 

We can finally agree! I think Ali hated for a few years but after the dust settled, he simply didn't/couldn't hate the man anymore.