The big 4 VS.The big 4 of our generation

Should have been Whitaker IMO. He fought in this time frame. Not at LW, but that was his best weight.

Chavez prime weight is 140.

 

Chavez v Duran would have been an absolutely BRUTAL fight. I would pick Hopkins over Hagler no problem... Hop is better in almost every aspect. Just an all around better technical fighter. Leonard over Mayweather due to size, but this is still a f*cking great fight. I think Floyd is a superior counter puncher to Ray... It would be interesting to see if he could beat him from the outside. Ray is a better offensive fighter then Floyd though, and puts his combinations together much better. Mosley v Duran would be unreal. I think Mosley could definitely have a shot. He has more speed, more power, a great chin and terrific stamina. I would probably be inclined to go with Shane, i think the speed would be too much here. Shane was a vicious combination puncher at the lighter weights. He would be very tough to get inside against. Hearns over Trinidad for obvious reasons.

 

still

 

How about a best 4 from the recent generations.

Whitaker
Jones
Calzaghe
Hopkins

:yep

Jones beats them all with Hagler, Calzaghe, Hopkins, Hearns and those guys.

 

Hopkins movement would DESTROY Hagler. Hagler would be wide open to the lead right hand of Hop. Hagler would have his moments, but i can see a boxing masterclass from BHop here. Hagler would do well from the inside, but Hop is such a well rounded fighter, and so intelligent. He would stick and move and beat Hagler by outboxing him, not outbrawling him.

 

I honestly disagree with most of that.

I think either you base most of your opinion of Hagler on the mid 80's version, or underrate him greatly, as the younger Hagler(late 70's to early 80's) was equal to Hopkins in most aspects, and even better in certain areas. I see that fight as pretty much even money.

As far as Duran/Mosley goes. Duran was more skilled in every aspect, Mosley holding only the speed advantage. As KG said, the fight would be a brawl early on, Mosley's strength, speed, and power keeping him in the fight, but the Duran's defense, inside skills, and versatility in close(where the majority of this fight takes place) would give him the edge, and allow him to take over as the fight wore on, especially due to the body shots, as Duran was one of the best body punchers ever. I don't see Shane's speed overcoming Duran's versatility.

I think you underrate Duran in general, as I think, while he and Chavez would've definitely been a great fight, it would've also been clear who the superior fighter was.

And I obviously don't think Floyd fares as well against Ray.

 

You say Hagler would do well from the outside(which he would), and then say directly after that Hopkins would stick and move and outbox him. I don't get your reasoning.

At his very best, in his younger days, Hagler had very underrated movement, both with his feet and with his upper body, which allowed him to be a great counter puncher, and allowed him to place his punches with amazing accuracy. I think Hopkins has shown similar counter-punching abilities(arguably better) but I believe Hagler creates more opportunites for himself, rather than opting to wait like Hopkins.

Once again, we're talking a peak Hagler, in which case we're also talking about a peak Hopkins. Two guys who were capable of using great movement, but one of which who didn't really start to take advantage of it until his athleticism and physicality started to fade. Watch a younger Hopkins, and you'll see he had no problems standing in the pocket and trading with his opposition(rather countering than trading). He wasn't the mover he showed in the Tito, Echols, etc fights later on, but was a much more efficient offensive fighter.

Hagler's edge here would be his jab on the outside, and his ability to switch it up, which would give Hopkins trouble timing his straight right, as he'd more than likely try to utilize this when Hagler was fighting from the southpaw stance. In other words, I don't see a prime Hagler -one that wasn't as easily befuddled by movement, and had great movement of his own, as well as other tools to match Hopkins- being as easily timed and figured out by Hopkins as most other straight forward boxers.

 

-Duran would give Mosley a beating worse than what Forrest did. Duran did not respects SRL power so I expect Duran to just bulldoze through Mosley en route to a 10 round TKO.
-Hearns by Ko over Trinidad in 6.
-Leonard would probably win by decision against Floyd. This is a tough fight.
-Hagler by Ko or Decision over Hopkins. It will be like a Casa vs. Katsidis fight, Difference is Hagler has a granite chin and a better foot movement.

 

imo both Chavez and Duran would beat Mosley at 135

 

You probably are biased but your not wrong. I favor Haggler but Bernard would be a very live dog in this.

 

Agreed, but the size, combination punching (including to the body), and speed of Mosely would have kept him very competitive.

 

I don't know why i even bothered posting in this thread, an exercise in futility. I never said Hagler would do better from the outside, i don't know what you are talking about in your other post. I clearly said he would do better from the inside. Hops movement would definitely give him trouble. Duran was a great body puncher, but when did Shane Mosley become weak to the body.... You choose to idiolize these guys, i choose to look at their loses as well, and footage when they have looked awkward and weak. The infamous No Mas fight for instance, where he showed NO ability to cut the ring off. How far off prime was that? I never said Chavez beats Duran, don't put words in my mouth. I said it would be a brutal fight which it would. When did Shane Mosley show any particular weakness at 135? The guy was blazing fast, heaps of power and was a great combination puncher. If Duran was eating leather from Benetiz, he sure as hell would have had trouble with the angles and speed that Mosley provided. Shanes jab was MUCh more effective at the lower weights as well, if thats your reasoning as to why this fight takes place in close.

 

I like you as a poster, and you seem to understand certain things about boxing, mostly the current scene, but you seem pretty ignorant a lot of times in regards to past boxers, because you assume anyone who speaks about them is romanticizing them or simply a nostalgiac fan, and that we're the close-minded ones. Obviously not true, especially given the way you seem to think about guys like Arguello, Monzon, etc. being primitive, despite the fact that they fought in a non-primitive era and were hugely successful.

Really? You're correct, and we're just blind fans of the old-timers in other words? Get off your high horse, what is it with you today? And that is what you meant, even if I "put words in your mouth".

True, I mis-read for some reason.

Well when ya put it that way!

When did he ever face a great body-puncher? Come to think of it, when did he ever face a fighter who was past B level at LW? Hell, even B level would be stretching it given the sorry opposition he faced. Regardless of whether or not he is weak to the body, a pure brawler who relies on fighting at mid-range to get off his big shots is certainly not going to get the best of Duran over 12 rounds on the inside, given Duran's immense inside skills, especially at tying up his opponents and getting off his own shots in the tie ups.

Not far, but when you take into consideration he balooned up to 200 pounds in the months difference between the first and second fight and had to cut it right back off, it's pretty obvious the difference between the Duran of the first and second fights. Either way, when did Shane choose to fight in a manner like Leonard? Shane was a technical brawler, a mid-range fighter, not a mover/clowner like Leonard chose to be that night to frustrate an already out of shape Duran.

I don't recall saying you said that.

I never show any weaknesses when backyard boxing with my smaller friends who have no boxing experience, does that make me impressive? Shane's competition was pathetic at LW. Duran fought around 70 fights there, losing once due to complacency in a non-title match which he avenged twice by stoppage. Against much better competition than Mosley as well.

This goes right back to my first paragraph. You're now comparing Mosley, a mid-range boxer/brawler, to Benitez, one of the most skilled defensive fighters/counter-punchers of all time(who happened to catch Duran at 154 when past his prime, which does nothing to discredit a LW Duran) and acting as if Mosley is actually the worse style matchup.

You don't seem to have seen much footage of a prime Benitez, Hagler, Arguello, etc to think this way about these guys. A comparison of Benitez and Mosley, especially in the sense that you just compared the two, is completely irrelevant, and quite ridiculous.

Yes, it was more effective against the lawn-mowers that he faced.

According to Shane himself, he was better, stronger, and according to footage, quicker at WW than he was at LW. He was a better fighter overall at WW, the only difference was the level of competition.

I love Shane, but he's not exactly an extra versatile fighter, whereas Duran, at his best, was. And the style matchup clearly points to Duran in a matchup with a fighter who will try to brawl at mid-range against him. I'm sorry, but barring possibly a guy like Ike Williams, that's not the way to success against Duran.

 

Duran/Mayweather is an interesting fight. I think Duran is one of the true greats, but that Floyd is a tricky customer.

- Jason

 

First off i said it is an exercise in futility because it cannot be proved either way. Not because i think any of you are closed minded. Just that we have different opinions. You totally misinterpreted that one.

Secondly, don't take things to extremes. I don't think any of these guys are primitive, i just don't rate them on the same level that you do.

Watch this clip of Duran, seemingly in his prime, against a much LESSOR opponent. [YT]0oLPlz5SqZc[/YT]

You can see the great jab of Duran, solid defensive ability, good movement and most of all his strength even though this is at a higher weight.

Now watch this clip of Mosley

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Even this very young version of Mosley, you can see the superior speed, the angles, the power he displays. Duran was a very good technical fighter, YES. I just think that Shane would have the goods to beat him. Shane really has trouble against taller guys with longer jabs, neither of which is Duran. Shanes long reach, great speed, angles, power ect i think in the end would have edged Duran. Still a very very tough fight, Duran is a great fighter.

You bag Mosleys comp no end, but you need to look at how he performed against these guys, which was very very impressive. Out of curiosity, which were the big names on Durans record at 135 that impressed you so much?

The comparison to Benitez is a bit off yes, but what i am pointing out is the fights that he has looked less then invincible in.

Duran going mid range with Mosley would equal Duran getting punched hard and often IMO. The speed and power of Mosley would be extremely hard to deal with.

Finally i have seen prime footage of the guys you are talking about. And they are good fighters. I think you are really trying to go to extremes here to make your points. You are saying i think these guys are all primitive, and that they are all lessor fighters. Not the case at all, i just believe that certain fighters from today could have beaten them.