if there's one thing i'm a sucker for, it's reacting to seeing calzaghe back and forth going over and over and over with people posting their take on his career based on preferences, beliefs - whatever. it doesn't really matter because at the end of the day there's a reason why a truly excellent fighter like calzaghe will retire undefeated (watch this space...) but will continue to receive more criticism about his career than any legitimate champion in recent years. and i'm going to try and do it without going over too much of the same old ground i've covered before. here goes..... first thing that came to mind after reading some of posts is this... if jones and hopkins avoided calzaghe - because those fights could have been made when it mattered - then is calzaghe avoiding froch and is hatton avoiding witter? i'm taking this approach because it's only natural that some of calzaghe's most ardent supporters are brits on the forum (but not all), so this is a legitimate comparison. i'm going to add abraham avoiding sturm to that list too - because it's a great example of the point i'm going to make. in the modern era of boxing, where only a select few fighters command either notoriety and-or- 7+ figure paydays, the fighter who puts himself in a position to dictate what fights he can or cannot take - because he's worked harder, has taken the chances and conquered mightier foes than the aforementioned challengers - IS UNLIKELY TO RISK WHAT HE HAS WORKED HIS CAREER FOR AGAINST FIGHTERS WHO DEEM THEMSELVES WORTHY BUT AREN'T WILLING TO TAKE THE SAME RISKS. witter - hatton froch - calzaghe calzaghe - jones-hopkins sturm - abraham in every example above, the first fighter listed has a lower profile and made less attempt to make his mark on the world stage - something which if he did do - could have made the fight happen. witter - hatton is maybe the most contentious here. forget titles, record...whatever....it's where you sit on the food chain that dictates what fights you can or cannot make. that's the bottom line.
bump..because i want to hear from someone who disagrees with this, read it, and is willing to put up an argument as to why i'm wrong.
I dont think Hop and Roy avoided Calzaghe at all. But nor do i believe those fights were as easy made as some say by Calzaghe making more of an effort. Not impossible, but far from a gimme. The only time frame for A Prime Jones Jr fight for Calzaghe is 97-03. Jones was already gonna make the move to Heavyweight, so 03 is out. Calzaghe had only just won a WBO belt in 97, so that isnt happening, nor can it be realisticly expected for a new holder of a trinket belt to get the P4P No.1 in a Ring that early, nonsense. Be realistic, how long do you think it would take Balzsay to get Hopkins in the Ring? Even if Calzaghe had immediately vacated his WBO belt at the end of 97, and moved to LH, what possible fights can he get to attract Jones?. To make it Risk/reward worth it for Jones. How much weight does a WBO belt champ who immediately vacates hold in the weight above? Again, use Balzsay as an example, what fight out there could bring him closer to Hop. That 97-03 bull**** shrinks considerably. Youre talking 00-02. He could have got it instead of Woods, no doubt.But that would envolve the immediate vacation of his belt at a weight that he had just established himself at, to go fight at a new weight for less money, in non title fights to chase a man who wasnt exactly easy to get in the ring. Who does that. Also, people seem to bypass the fact that any which way you cut it, he couldnt have got both Hop and Roy in their primes. He does what I put forward above in chasing Jones, moving himself 2 divisions above Hop, and any fight with Hop in his prime would rely on Hop jumping 2 Divisions, Forgetting ODLH and his 10yr reign just to take on Calzaghe. And seeing as that scenario rely's on Calzaghe beating Jones, what are the chances of that. Hop wouldnt do it for a a guy just beat by Jones. He didnt even do it for Jones. Impossible. The only other way to get both in their primes is to forget chasing Jones first and chase Hop, and somehow get him in the ring before the end of 01. I cant possibly see how Calzaghe can make himself a more attractive option to Hop than Tito. Or even make him vacate and move up in early 01. The best he could have done in that time frame would be to go to Germany and fight Ottke(Suicide), and get Echols. Do you think that would be enough? Getting Hop in prime, hard, and would rely on Hop vacating his belt immediately after ODLH and going to SMW, but not impossible if Calzaghe can make himself an attract option for a fight in 04. Johnson,Ottke(Gulp) and Echols on Calzaghe's record might be enough. Getting Jones in his prime, hard, but immediate move up to LH in 97 should have been enough time to get himself in a better posistion than Clinto Woods. Not impossible. Getting both in their Primes rely's on him doing the second option and beating Jones. I'll let you decide. I know ive went off one BI2 but seemed as good a thread as any. I dont believe Hop or Jones avoided Calzaghe at all.
Ok I agree with you but I also don't think Calzaghe avoided them, he called them out, Hopkins was seconds away from agreeing to a fight but neither Jones nor Hopkins needed Calzaghe in their primes so it didn't happen. Joe called out Ottke for 2 good years and nothing happened, I think people say that Joe avoided too many big fights but I honestly think he wanted them all.
I dont think he avoided them either. But i do think he could have made it harder for Hop to back out. I know the Ottke situation and I dont blame anyone for not fighting him in Germany, but that aside the inclusion of Johnson,Echols on Calzaghe's record would have brought more attention from the States and would have raised Joe's profile and even out the risk/reward a bit. Whether that would have been enough for Hop to give up the ODLH fight in the foreground, and move to SMW i dont know. We can only speculate. But he wouldnt have been able to pull out as easily as he did if Calzaghe had a bigger profile.
I think this brings up a good point about risk-reward. But the guys that Jones and (especially) Hopkins were fighting at the time were mostly of a similar statue to Calzaghe. Echols especially comes to mind but im not sure on my dates for that one.
With Johnson, Joe had 2 fights agreed and pulled out with an injury twice, one due to hands and the other due to his back I believe. I don't think he'd lie about the injuries but I also don't really think a win over Johnson at that time would of done much for his record as it was pre Jones, Tarver and Woods.
Yeah I know but it wouldnt be for his record as much as it would raise his profile in the States and give him a common opponent with Hop. That's all. There wasnt a lot of choice.
That's sad for you to say. You basically admitted Calzaghe picked his way to the top. So you also basically stated you admire a fighter that can manipulate boxing politics. Good for him (Calzaghe), he figured out how to manipulate fans and boxers into his plans. That's all ****ing spectacle, that's not boxing. The real thing is being that true warrior that takes on all comers, and is at least a little submissive to their fans. You have to give something to them to be appreciated. The bottom line is, fights happen in the ring. He'll get zero credit from me for the bull**** he did outside of the ring. That being said, I think his performances against Lacy and Kessler were incredible. If he had a lot more fights like that, well then, I'd appreciate Calzaghe a lot more.
I think it's unlikely that Jones and Hopkins avoided Calzaghe, more that they could get a better payday against a known American fighter than an obscure British one. Calzaghe wasn't really known in America until he beat Jeff Lacy. Boxing is a business and fighters are always chasing the money before the competition. Just look at the recent Hatton/Pacquiao matchup.
I dont think Roy avoided Calzaghe, he was making millions doing his things and Joe was an unknown in the US until recently and was in a different weight class. Hopkins is different he pulled out of a fight, but like somebody has already said boxing in business and **** happens, the fight happened in the end, and we got the right result. Ottke or even Beyer wouldve been nice names for the record but you cant make people sign to fight you, and personally I think Lacy and Kessler are better wins to unify the titles anyway...
People give JC grief for puiiling out of the Johnson fight, but it is only in retrospect that is seems important. When the fight was initially scheduled Calzaghe was beeing ridiculed on the forums for taking another easy fight, Johnson has a very poor record at SMW and had already lost to Sheika who Calzaghe destroyed. It was seen as another soft defence. Johnson also had a very competitive trilogy with Clinton Woods, a good fighter, but nowhere near the level of Calzaghe. Would Johnson really improve Calzaghes' record? Multiple losses, against some good and moderate fighters.
no i didn't. i said i admire calzaghe's ability but i don'øt respect at all his choice to subscribe to frank warren's philosophy of bankrolling his way to retirement.
thats a little ironic. johnson was willing to genuinely fight anyone, anywhere - and a lot of his losses were close ones away from home. so you tell me if a fighter who will fight anybody and got fighter of the year for taking that attitude would be a feather in the cap for a more skilled fighter who took few risks?
