The chin and defensive skills of Joe Louis

I'm not.

It's just an interesting way to see how people assess chin/recovery etc in h2h discussions and Joe Louis is a polarizing figure. It's good to see what the general consensus is for his abilities when making vs threads.

 

I get what you're saying, KO's decrease in number when you step up. Similarly, punch resistance tends to go down when you step up.

I'm pretty sure I brought this up before, but let me say it again: there are SEVERAL boxers whose punch resistance did NOT go down when they stepped up. Again, for maybe the 5th time, Ali, Holyfield, Foreman, Usyk, etc did not suddenly get dropped a bunch of times when they stepped up in class. Louis did. You are attempting to give Louis a pass and there are boxers who simply do not need a pass once they stepped up.

It doesn't matter what Louis record would be if he retired after Walcott, that's irrelevant.

Not exactly, you're the one who wanted to praise Louis for stepping up and consistently fighting ranked opponents.

Now you want to give him a pass for the numerous knockdowns against said ranked opponents.

This is why I said you're trying to have it both ways. You want Louis to get the benefit of the doubt for all his knockdowns while simultaneously saying he should get a pass since he stepped up. Either his chin holds up or it doesn't.

In a h2h discussion aren't the most important fights to look at the ones against ranked contenders and champions? How else will we know if their chin would hold up against ranked contenders and champions of other eras?

 

Well, some modernists think that boxing always evolves linearly. They think that even an average boxer today can beat elite boxers from 50 years ago, and boxers from 50 years into the future can beat boxers today. They think boxers always get bigger, stronger, faster, more technically sound, etc.

So for people who hold this view, Joe Louis triggers them. His hand speed still looks impressive nearly 100 years later. His technique is superb and we have virtually no boxers that can match him in terms of his timing, punching mechanics, etc. He even beat some modern sized boxers who are well over 220+ lbs.

The "polarizing" discussions happen when you have people of two extremes: the modernists who begrudgingly admit "yeah yeah, Louis technique was great but he had a glass jaw and only fought bums so he wouldn't be successful today". The other extreme fights back saying "Louis could beat Fury and Usyk back to back on the same night. Anthony Joshua would get fired from Louis' training camp in just 2 days for being too weak to spar".

I try to have a more balanced approach between the two extremes. I don't think all his opponents were bums, or do I think Louis would go 100-0 against modern fighters.

 

Not exactly. Ali suffered 2 knockdowns prior to him reaching his peak from the Liston fights to the Terrel fight. Younger Clay was a very cocky and careless guy and paid for it when Banks and Cooper dropped him.

Ironically in the 70's when Ali's athletic abilities decreased and he stepped up to even more dangerous opponents in Frazier, Norton, Foreman, etc, he has only 1 knockdown for those 7 grueling battles.

Foreman always had leaky defense and was dropped by Ali due to a dumb game plan his corner insisted was working. Against his other 2 best opponents in Frazier and Norton, he destroyed them 3-0 with zero knockdowns and taking very little damage. Against Lyle he was rusty, coming off a loss, and chose to just turn his brain off and slug away. As an ancient old man he didn't get dropped by Cooney, Holyfield, Morrison, Moorer, etc.

Okay sure, let's remove Usyk since his career isn't done. You still have Liston who certainly didn't look "terrible" defensively when he tore through the contenders of the 60's like Folley, Williams, Machen, etc, and then crushed Patterson 2-0. He had an injured arm heading into the Ali fight and the 2nd fight is probably the most mysterious match of all time. He never suffered a clean, uncontroversial knockdown until he was older than dinosaur bones against Martin.

Holyfield's chin and defensive held up marvelously in an incredibly long career. He didn't get stopped until he was way past it post the Lewis wars.

In case you didn't notice, even if they didn't face as many contenders and Joe Louis, they fought more than their fair share of world class fighters and guys who packed serious punching power. Why haven't you addressed this...?

I am not faulting him for fighting Braddock. I'm faulting him for getting dropped by a very mediocre boxer with dubious punching power if he truly had 9/10 chin and 9/10 defense. The math just isn't adding up. Braddock was not a particular skilled, polished sniper or boxer either even by his own era's standards so that excuse doesn't work either.

Louis had crushed multiple former champions such as Carnera, Sharkey, etc, so it really wasn't strange to expect him to do the same to Schmeling even if Schmeling had good skills and ring IQ.

Louis not being stopped in 15 years had less to do with him having amazing 9/10 defense and chin and more about the fact he had lethal punching power, blinding hand speed, and superb technique. You keep glossing over this. His offense and technique bailed him out and overwhelmed many opponents who managed to hurt him.

 

But he doesn't look "terrible", which is what you claimed. You said fighters always look terrible defensively when they step up in class. Ali suffered approximately 1 knockdowns against his 5 best opponents. His record was 7-2, and even in the 2 fights he lost he wasn't getting thrashed or battered around the ring displaying good footwork, head movement, and ring generalship. I don't what Ali fights you watched, but they couldn't have been the one's from his peak championship years.

They are certainly not overrated when it comes to punching power.

Pinklon Thomas said Morrison hit harder than Tyson, and Morrison stopped him faster than Tyson. Morrison also seemed to do more damage against Ruddock than Tyson did and stopped him faster as well.

Briggs was praised by Lewis as the hardest puncher he faced, and he holds the record for 1st round KOs.

Yet Foreman ate their punches like cheese burgers while past his prime and certainly didn't look "horrible". In fact some scores the fight against Briggs for Foreman and said it was a robbery.

Holyfield's horrible health during the Bowe stoppage is well documented.

I would say Ali, Holyfield, and Foreman had 9/10 chins, so obviously even by your logic Louis shouldn't have a 9/10 chin. Especially because I also certainly don't rate his defense an absurd 9/10. The math doesn't add up at all.

2 stoppages losses is 2 many for 9/10, period.

A 9/10 is close to a perfect score, and A- on a report card. It means you have to damn near hit the boxer with everything but the kitchen sink to hurt and drop them. And that is simply NOT true of Louis.

Louis was dropped in the 1st round by Braddock, dropped in the 1st by Baer, dropped in the 1st by Walcott. That's THREE separate incidents of Louis showing incredible vulnerability in the very 1st round. One or two, you can maybe excuse as him not being fully warmed up, being off guard, a flash knockdown, etc. when it happens three times it's a very glaring pattern.

There is no boxer in history with 3 1st round knockdowns who has a 9/10 chin, let alone also having 9/10 defense. It simply does not compute.

Again, I insist Louis survived because his offense was his defense. No HW before or since Louis can match his unique combination of superb power, hand speed, and technique. His opponents probably felt like they were running through a field of mines attempting to finish him off.

 

If you want to blame it on ropes, balance, etc, it's deflecting from the fact he got nailed hard enough to drop him in the first place.

Can you name 1 fighter in the entire history of boxing who had 9/10 chin and 9/10 defense who has 3 separate 1st round knockdowns...? Because those are Janitor's stats.