THE CLASSIC HALL OF FAME INAUGURAL INDUCTION: The Welterweights (Closed - Results In)

Ross certainly did great work at WW, especially for someone who was never more than a natural LW, LWW at most.

I have no problem with Pacquiao being ranked ahead of Mayweather P4P, or vice versa, either way they are very close imo. I rank them both slightly higher than you, with them just sneaking into my top 20. My P4P list is a WIP though

 

First. Who did he lose to in his prime who was a club level fighter?

 

Yes, because Leonard only had 2 fights at 160. Against Hagler and against Camacho when he was 40 and hadn't fought in 6 years. But Hagler is superior to anyone Griffith ever beat, that is undeniable. Yes he was slipping, but Leonard had only fought once in the last 5 years. Tt's one of the best wins ever, period. Griffith may rank a bit higher because of the quantity of good names he fought but Leonard had far and away the better best win, which is why I also don't rank Duran above Gavilan at 147, even while having the single best win at the weight ever.

Leonard beat an arguably top 3 ATG at the weight so it's pretty close to beating the GOAT. Even if you argue he lost he still did much better than Griffith did. And Tiger "may be" greater than Benitez, but to suggest he is anywhere near Hearns and especially Duran is ridiculous. The former is on the same level as Napoles, the latter is only clearly overshadowed by fighters whose resumes are bordering on science fiction.

 

I didn’t say Tiger was greater, I called him a bigger threat. Hagler was past his final hurrah, Tiger was still a barbarian and would go on to be LHW champion after Griffith beat him while quite a bit past his best….

The point I’m making about Emile having more 160lbs wins is that I think having a consistently great record in two steep classes means more then dipping your toes in the water against end of the road Hagler. Thus raising Griffs stock.

 

That's true, but I think that Leonard basically being retired for half a decade with 1 insignifact fight in-between more than compensates for Hagler being at the end of the road, thus making it a greater win than Griffith against Tiger in my opinion. But I get where you're coming from.

This point is also true, but only at 160. I simply think that Leonard's wins over Benitez, Hagler, Hearns and Duran is more impressive than anything Griffith did at both weights, and given how 3 of those wins were at 147, he is clearly above Griffith at 147 for me, who did not beat anyone as good as those 3 ( his best name is at 160, and as I said previously, he "may " be greater than Benitez ) and wasn't even the best of his era. Add the Hagler win and his career is better as a whole for me as well.

 

So you believe that the version of Hagler beat by Leonard was better then D1ck Tiger? That’s your stance? Not being a gadfly I’m just asking before we go back to some other points.

 

Jose Napoles
Kid Gavilan
Sugar Ray Robinson
Ray Leonard
Emile Griffith
Carmen Basilio
Fritzie Zivic

 

No. I'm saying that Leonard also being past his best ( maybe more than Hagler ) makes his win more impressive than it would have been had Hagler been the one in decline, which is why I hold it in a higher regard than Griffith beating Tiger.

 

Robinson….Leonard….Griffith…Napoles…Rodriguez….Gavilan….Basilio

 

Man …I can’t believe I denied one of my favorite fighters ( Donald Curry) lol

 

I think that’s flawed. Shouldn’t beating an ATG MW who would go on to be LHW champion be better then a win over a once was ATG MW in his last fight? It shouldn’t matter when Leonard did it the win is still the same. It’s simple, is Hagler in his last fight better then Tiger was when Griffith beat him?The scalp doesn’t change because one guy was old or inactive when he got it.

 

I think the condition of the winner can add to a victory. We value past prime victories for a reason.

 

I see that but it shouldn’t out do a superior scalp. So for instance Leonard was inactive came out and beat a faded Hagler in his last fight who suffered with the very rudimentary Mugabai. Dick Tiger would go on to be LHW champ… The version of Hagler that Leonard fought was not in my opinion as good as Tiger whatever his standing in the past. Emile Himself was not fresh at all and small for the weight outweighed by 10lbs I forget, not unlike Leonard he had a proper career prior to this, I think in this scenario between these wins it goes to Emile.

 

I'm not arguing with or against you. I only popped in because of "The scalp doesn’t change because one guy was old or inactive when he got it."