The Crouch And Cutting Off The Ring

From my observation, and having recently watched the LaMotta vs Robinson VI fight I believe that one of the biggest limitations with the crouch defensive is it's focus on slowly stalking and getting low, and therefore for the most part following. At least there seems to be a pattern between crouch-styled fighters and a inability to cut the ring off effectively, or a tendency to slowly follow.

Now, since the key to the crouch is to get low and pull away from punches. Sometimes bobbing and weaving and rolling under punchers, you're really standing yourself as a solid block. Practice fighting this way and you can even feel how sturdy and strong you make yourself. This low center of gravity exudes a careful method to defensive, making it more difficult for taller fighters to jab and punch at you. What you get is a slow-stalking forward movement. Crouch fighters focus on bending the hips and using the core to roll under punches causes a difficulty with fighters cutting the ring off while moving. Let's just take a look at some footage.

I'll be using 3 examples here. Dempsey, LaMotta, and Marciano.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUYhjX64pDo[/ame]


I don't even have to point to an example. Just play the footage and see. Notice how LaMotta uses his lower body strength to plant himself and crouch, and then sometimes leap out of it to attack. You see that Lamotta doesn't stand upright completely, and he doesn't ever really stop moving with his feet parallel horizontally. Usually, he has left foot in front with the root fight back. His footwork is almost at a 90 degree angle. Compare that to a Joe Frazier who bobs & weaves a little more upright forward. His offense is his defense in a sense. He exudes great pressure and pace fastly, and in order for this he moves fastly forward and cuts the ring off aptly. The Crouch style here by Lamotta is much different. This style, is almost like a stalking tiger. Lamotta is waiting and then pounces. But he's always in a good position to defend himself by either blocking, pulling back so punches don't hurt him as much or rolling with punches. Look how fast SRR is but you can see Lamotta defense and style here are very apt. Due to this, Jake even outjabs Sugar Ray Robinson in this fight.

Now on to Rocky Marciano. Here's footage of his second fight against Jersey Joe Walcott.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yElVvd1_BdQ[/ame]


Check 1:49 to 2:20

See Marciano very similarly crouch slowly after Walcott. Notice how the crouch stops the flow and movement of offense. Crouching is defensive and offensive because you can leap out of it. While it's also a defensive maneuver. Doing so stops your movement right in you tracks.

Also notice how Marciano footwork is about 80-90 degrees like LaMotta's. Notice how because of your footwork and the crouch, that your movement becomes forward. But it's an angle forward. At the same time though, it's a slow stalk. And this fighting style discourages cutting the ring off. Most people who fought in this style don't have the fastest of feet, either.

Here's the fight the first fight against Walcott.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr0FaBLnsIk&feature=related[/ame]


Check the first minute. Notice how Rocco moves forward, and then moves his back foot left to keep himself squared up.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI4J_epSwCw&feature=related[/ame]


This is later in the fight. Notice how Rocky almost slides both feet horizontally toward his opponent? As a basketball player, it almost reminds me of sliding your feet on defense.

Because of this style, you see that you're hindering your footspeed and following more, making it much more difficult to cut off the ring. This serves a purpose defensively and offensively, but to me makes the style more apt at fighting in the middle of the ring. While it does limit the slugger/swarmer/brawler fight to get his man toward the ropes.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-v4OtvXRcQ&feature=related[/ame]


4:15 Round 13 "The Unlucky Number."

This is a good example of what I'm referring.

Lastly, we go to Dempsey.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCcMZZoVMY[/ame]


Highlights of Dempsey vs Gibbons.

To me, Dempsey fights almost out of a half-crouch. So he maneuvers forward quicker, and doesn't dip down as low and stays upright a bit more so than the other crouch fighters. Dempsey has great lateral movement, and he puts pressure on fast. But you can notice a lot of the time he tends to stalk too. Sometimes, he moves forward and lot and than moves laterally to try cornering opponents off. Instead of cornering first, and then trying to move forward (Which is the more effective way to cut off the ring).


Would classic agree that while the crouch has it's great advantages that one of it's weaknesses and limitations is the stance and requirement to stay grounded. Therefore, the angles used are more straightforward and stalking forward, rather than aptly and effectively cutting off the ring.

... Or is this just a time thing? I doubt it. You can find fighters that cut off the ring, but really, the effectiveness of cutting of the ring was something that really didn't start happening often until the 70's maybe. Even Liston was awful at cutting the ring off. While any other stance/style can cut off the ring effectively, opponents sometimes just choose to follow. With the crouch, this gets limited and hindered because of what is required out of the stance. While Liston was awful at cutting off the ring, Foreman was much much better. Tyson was better than Patterson, too. Heck, Dempsey had faster foot-speed, but I think on a technical aspect Joe Frazier cut off the ring better than Jack Dempsey. At least more properly.

I know what I said was long, and I rambled. But what do you guys think?

 

Yes, and no. LaMotta has a good jab. In fact, most think he out-jabbed SRR. But most of the fight is him still following. The fact he jabs with him and was fighting with him in the center of the ring well helps, though.

So you honestly think crouch pressure fighters like Marciano and LaMotta cut off the ring as good as Frazier? It's a different kind of stalking. LaMotta and Marciano can get their shots off. And the crouch is a style that users their short height is an advantage. But at the same time, it's limiting their chance to score with their opponents on the ropes. It's more about staying centered, low, and leaping/shooting out to attack.

If you notice, the crouch is a get style to counter opponents with any shot pretty well compared to most aggressive styles. Frazier could also weave under that right and throw his left hook. But with the crouch, you have a good launching part and part to roll/slip and counter any shot. LaMotta, Marciano, and Dempsey were great at this.

 

Great point. And since they're ideally moving on the backfoot at a faster pace, it should be more draining for them. Rather than tiring for both fighters. Interestingly, you make a good point. Since the low-centered fightered is at such a strong position, it forces the fighter to be defensive and shoot their shots quickly. You notice Robinson flurrying quickly, and then moving off. He's sacrificing some power for more speed. Walcott does this sometimes, and a lot of other times he doesn't. When he doesn't it is dangerous. If he lands it can be good for him, though. But sometimes because of this he gets into big exchanges. The longer, and more often he gets into these exchanges the worse off it is for him. Robinson was smarter by not trying to fight that fight.

Yep, this is similar to what I was talking about with Walcott I think.

Very true. You could argue there is a psychological aspect to almost any kind of style. LaMotta trained himself and told his mind that "He could never be hurt." This was very powerful, and helped him as much physically.

Also, one thing that doesn't get stressed enough with the crouch compared to other aggressive styles is the deceptiveness to how clean you're getting hit.

A lot of the time LaMotta would pull back when he saw the punch so it didn't connect as hard. Compare that to Frazier getting timed and going straight into one of Ali's shots in FOTC or in his first fight with Foreman. Even a Patterson or Tyson no matter how elusive are most likely to get damaged coming forward because their moving forward faster and they're bobbing and weaving naturally toward their opponent. The crouch can give a fighter more diversity. Think of Tyson against Bonecrusher in the 15th round. He gets caught there with a shot that hurts him. Then think of Lennox Lewis uppercuting Tyson in round 1 of their fight. He catches Tyson. When you go into a shot, it's due to hit much more.

For LaMotta and Marciano, they can pull back, roll, and bob and weave. They are more stationary, so that's the allusion about it. Because they aren't really getting hit as cleanly or as often as it may appear.

Both styles have advantages though. You're more likely to explode on an opponent like Tyson with his style or catch your guy on the ropes fighting like Frazier. And with Tyson's athletic ability, chin, and speed it was fitting. But for a short strong, tough, good chinned fighter that's not the most athletic the crouch is a great choice.

 

Yes, even I admit that Walcott was a bit quicker in the fights with Louis. That's probably what he lost the most.

Still, look at Dempsey. He fights even out of a half-crouch, but I don't think he really cuts the ring off better than Frazier.

You can look at other examples and see that there's a pros/cons to everything. This is just one of the limitations of the crouch.

 

They didn't fight in the same style. They didn't add another dimension. Frazier was more upright and bob & weaved, similiarly Tyson fought out of the peeka boo like Patterson. Tyson/Patterson tuck their chin in a bit more than Frazier, and they move their heads more horizontally rather than Frazier's vertical bob & weave.

At the same time, Marciano and LaMotta were as effective as they could be at cutting off the ring. But the fighting style has its weaknesses. Clearly you are a half-step behind when fighting under the crouch. At the same time, it has its own advantages.

 

LaMotta and Marciano do bob & weave. It's just different.

You make it sound like Frazier/Tyson style is more advanced. This is simply not true. If I was fighting today I would still consider fighting out of the crouch if it fit me.

 

It's not, it's just different. I listed some of the advantages that you wouldn't get with the style Tyson/Frazier fight under.