The curious career of Bernard Hopkins

Francis75 · Nov 7, 2015

If you can make 160 and perform then you are a middleweight. 99% of fighters drain down to their weigh-in weight to fight in a division. If BHop could make weight AND perform at such an elite level for so long then that proves middleweight was the right place for him during that long peroid of his career.

Loudon · Nov 7, 2015

Mind Reader said: ↑

Stellar post my friend Loudon.
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:good

Loudon · Nov 7, 2015

Rumsfeld said: ↑

Hopkins wanted 50-50, and following the Trinidad victory, I think he deserved it. When they eventually did rematch, they ultimately wound up having that cool contractual detail that if the winner won by KO, winner would take 60% of the split.

But I actually think Jones was the one who wasn't crazy about it, despite the fact Hopkins may have been a bit stubborn on the split.

The "winner" of Tito-Hopkins was supposedly going to follow that up with a 168 pound catch weight fight against Jones. The problem was, it was widely believed this would be Trinidad. Had Trinidad beaten Hopkins, I have no doubt in mind we would have seen Jones-Trinidad next at 168, and Tito would have been royally outclassed (far worse than in that farce of a fight they had years later).

Anyway, back to topic, I largely disagree with Loudon's entire hypothesis.

I can't be bothered to look it up, and I may be wrong, but I recall reading and hearing Hopkins mention something about not truly being in "fighting shape" during his pro debut, despite his previous engagements in the sport predating his debut.

I also don't think it was uncommon for up and comers to sometimes have contractual stips which allow for them to come in a few pounds over the weight class limit. This definitely wasn't unique historically, almost surely wasn't entirely uncommon when we made the transitions from the 70s through the 80s and into the 90s, and even today I believe it's a fairly common practice.

Hopkins was a middleweight. I think he even described himself as "out of shape" for his debut.

When Hopkins claimed he started killing himself to make weight was sometime after DLH but prior to the Taylor fights. Maybe around Eastman or Joppy? At that point I think some of what Loudon said holds true.

Brighton Bomber's views, however, more closely reflect mine on this matter.

:smoke
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Good post.

I welcome people to challenge my theory.

Regarding a rematch with Roy, why do you think Bernard deserved a 50-50 split?

Roy had already beaten him, and he'd have had to have moved down in weight for a catchweight.

Do you think Bernard would have agreed to a 50-50 split, had he have already held a win over Roy?

Bernard made his name at MW with the belt that Roy had dropped when he moved up.

I agree with you, in that if Tito had've won, a fight with Roy would have been easier to make.

In my opinion, Bernard wanted no part of Roy, until he was finished.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/stories/2002-07-10-jones-hopkins.htm

Regarding the rest of my post, again, I'm not saying I'm right, it's just my opinion.

If he was out of shape for his debut, that's fine. But I haven't read that, and he'd have had to have been grossly out of shape to hit the scales at 177 pounds. And we don't what his fight night weight was.

Yes, of course fighters fight a few pounds over the limit in non title, keep busy fights. But it seems strange to me that a natural MW wouldn't consistently start to make weight until after 20 fights.

But again, it's just my opinion, and I could well be wrong.

OvidsExile · Nov 7, 2015

I love how Brighton claims that Tommy Hearns natural weight class was welterweight to explain why Bernard Hopkins is a middleweight. They are both light heavyweights, which is why that's where they wound up at the end of their careers. Same with Paul Williams, Alexis Arguello, Sandy Saddler, Bob Foster, and Michael Spinks. I bet Brighton thinks that 6'4" Guillermo Jones is a natural welterweight too.

Middleweight Measurements
Sergio Martinez 5'10"/73"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Marvin Hagler 5'9.5"/75"
Nino Benvenuti 5'11"/75"
Emile Griffith 5'7.5"/72"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joey Giardello 5'10"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Terry Downes 5'9"/69"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Carmen Basilio 5'6.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Gene Fullmer 5'8"/69"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Bobo Olson 5'10.5"/70"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Randy Turpin 5'9.5"/74.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Jake Lamotta 5'8"/67"
Marcel Cerdan 5'8"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Rocky Graziano 5'7"/68.5"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Billy Soose 6'.5"/73"
Ken Overlin 5'9"/70"
Ceferino Garcia 5'6"/70"
Al Hostak 6'
Solly Krieger 5'8"/68"
Fred Apostoli 5'9.5"/70"
Freddie Steele 5'10"/72"
Eddie Babe Risko 5'10"/72.5"
Teddy Yarosz 5'10"/72.5"
Vince Dundee 5'8"/71"
Lou Brouillard 5'7"/72"
Marcel Thil 5'8"/68.5"
Gorilla Jones 5'9"/75"
Mickey Walker 5'7"/67"
Tiger Flowers 5'10"/76"
Harry Greb 5'8"/71"
Johnny Wilson 5'9"/72"
Mike O'Dowd 5'8"/70"
Al McCoy 5'8"
George Chip 5'8"
Frank Klaus 5'7.5"
Stanley Ketchel 5'9"

Light Heavyweight
Adonis Stevenson 5'11"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Jean Pascal 5'10.5"/72"
Adrian Diaconu 5'9"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Tomasz Adamek 6'1.5"/75"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Graciano Rocchigiani 6'1"/74.5"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Fabrice Tiozzo 6'1"/72"
Mike McCallum 5'11.5"/ 74.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Ray Robinson 5'10"/74"
Donny Lalonde 6'2"
Thomas Hearns 6'1"/78"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
JB Williamson ?
Michael Spinks 6'2.5"/76"
Dwight Qawi 5'5.5"/71"
Matthew Saad Muhammad 5'11"/75"
Marvin Johnson 5'10.5"/72.5"
Mate Parlov 6'2"
Miguel Angel Cuello 5'9"
John Conteh 6'/76"
Bob Foster 6'3"/79"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joes Torres 5'10"/74"
Willie Pastrano 5'10"/72"
Harold Johnson 5'10"/74"
Archie Moore 5'11"/75"
Joey Maxim 6'1"/71.5"
Freddie Mills 5'10.5"/72"
Gus Lesnevich 5'9"
Anton Christoforidis 5'8"/72"
Billy Conn 6'1.5"/72.5"
Len Harvey 6'0"/73.5"
Melio Bettina 5'9"/70"
Tiger Jack Fox 5'11.5"/75"
John Henry Lewis 5'11"/75.5"
Bob Olin 5'10"/72"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Bob Godwin 5'11.5"
Joe Knight 5'11.5"
George Nichols 5'10.5"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Jimmy Slattery 5'11.5"/74"
Tommy Loughran 5'11.5"/73"
Jack Delaney 5'11.5"
Paul Berlenbach 5'10"/72"
Mike McTigue 5'9"/72"
Battling Siki 5'10.5"/75"
Georges Carpentier 5'11.5"
Battling Levinsky 5'11"/70"
Jack Dillon 5'7.5"/72"
Bob Moha 5'5"
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 5'10.5"
Bob Fitzsimmons 5'11.5"/71.5"
George Gardiner 5'11.5"
Jack Root 5'10"/73"

Loudon · Nov 7, 2015

Brighton bomber,

You've focused far too much on that first fight. If you were to approach this subject scientifically it would be seen as an anomaly not the trend or norm. What do many prisoners do when in prison? They lift and of course gain weight and muscle mass.

Hopkins did not start fighting as a middleweight in his 4th year as a pro, he fought at middleweight in his 6th fight. Sure there were plenty of times when he fought 1-3lbs above middleweight but that common practice, why make weight when no title is on the line. Look at Calzaghe's early fights, 13 of is first 22 fights were above super middleweight, are you claiming Calzaghe was a natural light heavy or even a cruiserweight, Calzaghe did once fight a cruiserweight.
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Great post.

Again, it's just a theory, and you may well be right, and I may be wrong.

Yes, I may have concentrated too much on his debut, and I can accept that he may have been out of shape as Rummy has mentioned. Because he didn't fight for a while after he made his debut, and he was a lot lighter upon his return. And I agree that a lot of fighters come in a few pounds over, when they're just ticking over in unimportant non title fights. And I also know that Joe fought more than a few pounds over the SMW limit. But there's a big difference between coming in a few pounds over, and coming in at 6-8 pounds over. Again, me saying that he could have been a natural LHW maybe way off the mark. Yes, he did fight at MW in his 6th fight, but again, he didn't commit to fighting at that weight until after he'd had 20 + fights. So don't you find that at all strange? Did he not take his training as serious when he was younger? There's big differences between what Joe did and what Bernard did. Again, I find it odd that a man who's always had pride in his discipline didn't fight regularly in his natural weight class until his 4th year.

You seem to show a lack of knowledge regarding how a fighter could make weight. Either Hopkins dehydrates himself to make a lower weight which would result in him hydrating back up large amounts of weight which clearly isn't what happened with Hopkins.
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I don't profess to have great knowledge on the subject. But I don't believe he dehydrated himself like your average fighter does. Your average fighter gains quite a bit of weight outside of the ring, and has a walking around weight of a lot more than the 5 pounds that Bernard reportedly used to walk around at. A fighter dropping a lot of weight in training has to dehydrate himself to hit the weigh in, before rehydrating by a good few pounds. But Bernard would not have needed to have done that, if he'd have been ultra strict, and kept his body as near to fight weight as possible. If he'd have been close to 160 due to his incredible discipline, he wouldn't have needed to have dehydrated himself that much to make the weight. His lifestyle simply has to come into play here with this theory.

The other option is Hopkins reduces weight my catabolising muscle mass, making him weaker and less effective as a fighter. There is no magical way of reducing muscle mass without seriously effecting certain aspects of athletic performance.
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Roy did the above and it weakened him.

Off topic, did you ever read up on Michael Spink's preparation when he fought at LHW?

This has always fascinated me:

http://www.si.com/vault/1985/10/07/620972/a-champ-with-strange-ideas

As someone else mentioned Hopkins had a 28 inch waist, that's not the physique of a natural light heavyweight. I'm 5'5" and have a 30-31 inch waist. Even when I ran 40-50 miles per week and was super thin at 118lbs I only ever had a 29 inch waist with a clear six pack.
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You ran 40-50 miles per week?

Wow!

How long did you do that for?

I'll retract my statement that Bernard was a natural LHW. But I still don't believe he was a natural MW. I think he had to work ridiculously hard to remain at that weight. And I want to know why he did that, when he could have fought better fighters at SMW and LHW?

Once again you are showing a lack of knowledge is regards to training and the human body. If he was a natural light heavy he wouldn't have needed Shilstone to go up in weight and not gain body fat.
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Okay. Again, I'm willing to change my opinion.

The human body has a natural weight zone it adheres to, if Hopkins was a natural light heavy he simply would have just had to stop running as much and eating more, as a natural light heavy it would have been muscle mass that he gained not fat, if it was predominantly fat then he would have not been a natural light heavy but a middleweight who simply got fat.
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As above.

Do you believe he was a natural SMW, who trained himself down and was unbelievably strict upon himself to maintain his MW run?

Discipline even on Hopkins level cannot defy the laws of physics or the laws that govern how the human body works. Either he was weakened at the weight or not you can't have it both ways. Hopkins somehow catabolised his own muscle mass to make weight yet wasn't weakened by this? He didn't even do this only when he fought but all year round according to you.
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I don't believe he was weakened. But it would be great if we had first hand accounts of his natural walking around weight, his percentage of body fat, and his rehydration weight.

You say all evidence points to him being not a natural middleiweight, well that statement simply isn't true. You have 2 pieces of supposed evidence, one he fought at a high weight in his first fight, 2 he's incredibly disciplined. That's not really evidence though it's 2 facts that you have used to create a hypothesis but it doesn't point to him being a natural super middle or light heavy alone. Other fighters have fought above their natural weight class in early fights, other fighters have been incredibly disciplined, though perhaps not as much as Hopkins.
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Again, it's just a theory. I'm not passing anything off as factual here.

Again, other fighters have fought a good few pounds over the limit, especially in keep busy fights. But again, 6-8 pounds is a lot, and I've never heard of anyone being as disciplined as Bernard, and that includes guys like Marvin Hagler.

We have no idea how Hopkins looked in his first fight, he may have been heavily muscled or he may have been carrying a spare tire around his waist. You don't know what shape he was in, but Hopkins himself said he basically didn't train much for that first fight.
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I can accept this. Again, I'd like to try and find out more information regarding his early career and his percentage of body fat and his rehydration weight etc.

I'm on the look out.

There is plenty of evidence that contradicts your hypothesis. His fight weights is one of those. He only weight 4lbs above the light heavy limit against Kovalev, is there any reason why he would drain himself and either not hydrate properly or come in smaller and weaker against Kovelev, I can't think of any. Hopkins as a middleweight rarely came in more than a few lbs heavier, he was out weight by Tito when they fought and the heaviest I have known him to step in the ring as a middleweight was against Taylor when he was 169lbs, the same weight Golovkin now fights at in the ring, are you saying Golovkin is not a middleweight?
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I welcome any and all evidence that contradicts my hypothesis. That's the point of the discussion, to see whether my theory is likely or unlikely. I enjoy the debate, and I'll gladly retract all of my statements if need be.

No, I'm not saying GG isn't a MW.

Again, I'd love to know what Bernard's walking around weight was when he fought at LHW.

The more information we can gather, the better the debate.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest he was a natural middleweight, more so than to suggest he was not, his low in ring weight as a middleweight, his low weights as a light heavy, the ease with which is dropped back down for catch weight fights with Wright and Pavlik, the fact he needed a specialist in Shilstone to add muscle mass and not just naturally move up in weight like a normal fighter would that had been draining down in weight, his 28 inch waist, the fact that as a light heavyweight he only twice actually weight in at 175lbs, he was usually a 1-5 lbs lower suggest he was not a light heavyweight.
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I respect all of your points. But again, would a natural MW only commit to fighting in his natural weight class, after 20 plus fights, in his 4th year as a pro?

Would a natural MW weigh in between 6 and 8 pounds over the limit, despite priding himself on his fitness?

Have you ever known a natural MW stay as disciplined as Bernard?

You have focused on to aspects of Hopkins, that first fight and his dicsipline and used that to create a hypothesis that he was not a natural middleweight. That's not a very scientific approach, all evidence has to be used and you can't just magic that away by saying Hopkins was just super disciplined because as I've said before it, no matter of self discipline can defy what the human body is capable off.
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I'm just a fan of the sport who's created a theory. I can't give you a scientific approach.

If you and other members can conclusively prove that he was in fact a natural MW, I'll thank you all for educating me, and I'll be happy to have learnt something new. Afterwhich, I'll move on to a different subject and annoy somebody else.

Thanks for the great debate.

:good

des3995 · Nov 7, 2015

Rumsfeld said: ↑

Hopkins wanted 50-50, and following the Trinidad victory, I think he deserved it. When they eventually did rematch, they ultimately wound up having that cool contractual detail that if the winner won by KO, winner would take 60% of the split.

But I actually think Jones was the one who wasn't crazy about it, despite the fact Hopkins may have been a bit stubborn on the split.

The "winner" of Tito-Hopkins was supposedly going to follow that up with a 168 pound catch weight fight against Jones. The problem was, it was widely believed this would be Trinidad. Had Trinidad beaten Hopkins, I have no doubt in mind we would have seen Jones-Trinidad next at 168, and Tito would have been royally outclassed (far worse than in that farce of a fight they had years later).

Anyway, back to topic, I largely disagree with Loudon's entire hypothesis.

I can't be bothered to look it up, and I may be wrong, but I recall reading and hearing Hopkins mention something about not truly being in "fighting shape" during his pro debut, despite his previous engagements in the sport predating his debut.

I also don't think it was uncommon for up and comers to sometimes have contractual stips which allow for them to come in a few pounds over the weight class limit. This definitely wasn't unique historically, almost surely wasn't entirely uncommon when we made the transitions from the 70s through the 80s and into the 90s, and even today I believe it's a fairly common practice.

Hopkins was a middleweight. I think he even described himself as "out of shape" for his debut.

When Hopkins claimed he started killing himself to make weight was sometime after DLH but prior to the Taylor fights. Maybe around Eastman or Joppy? At that point I think some of what Loudon said holds true.

Brighton Bomber's views, however, more closely reflect mine on this matter.

:smoke
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Mine as well, although I also think Hopkins decision to pursue MW was partially based on the prestige of MW, mixed with the fact that LHW would have countered some of the physical advantages he would have had at MW. At the time, SMW was still new and probably not a viable option.

OvidsExile · Nov 7, 2015

About Trinidad coming in heavier than Hopkins, to me that's an unimportant point. It's like Maidana coming in heavier than Mayweather. Maidana could eat jelly beans and ice cream with beer chasers until he's 200 lbs, and he's not naturally bigger than Mayweather, just like Trinidad isn't naturally bigger than Hopkins. We have a lot of plasticity to the human body, which is why James Toney could lose fifty pounds in a month, or why Christian Bale can fluctuate 100 pounds between movies. With the right diet and exercise you could totally live a lifestyle that lets you weigh twenty pounds more or less than other men with a similar build.

Like Loudon said, for those of you claiming that if Hopkins dehydrated himself he would be weak, he wasn't dehydrating himself, at least not the way Danny Jacobs is. He just had a very strict diet and exercise regimen.

elmaldito · Nov 8, 2015

Bhops two masterpieces are
Trinidad and calzaghie.
Vintage Bhop!

Brighton bomber · Nov 8, 2015

Ovid***ile said: ↑

I love how Brighton claims that Tommy Hearns natural weight class was welterweight to explain why Bernard Hopkins is a middleweight. They are both light heavyweights, which is why that's where they wound up at the end of their careers. Same with Paul Williams, Alexis Arguello, Sandy Saddler, Bob Foster, and Michael Spinks. I bet Brighton thinks that 6'4" Guillermo Jones is a natural welterweight too.

Middleweight Measurements
Sergio Martinez 5'10"/73"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Marvin Hagler 5'9.5"/75"
Nino Benvenuti 5'11"/75"
Emile Griffith 5'7.5"/72"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joey Giardello 5'10"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Terry Downes 5'9"/69"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Carmen Basilio 5'6.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Gene Fullmer 5'8"/69"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Bobo Olson 5'10.5"/70"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Randy Turpin 5'9.5"/74.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Jake Lamotta 5'8"/67"
Marcel Cerdan 5'8"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Rocky Graziano 5'7"/68.5"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Billy Soose 6'.5"/73"
Ken Overlin 5'9"/70"
Ceferino Garcia 5'6"/70"
Al Hostak 6'
Solly Krieger 5'8"/68"
Fred Apostoli 5'9.5"/70"
Freddie Steele 5'10"/72"
Eddie Babe Risko 5'10"/72.5"
Teddy Yarosz 5'10"/72.5"
Vince Dundee 5'8"/71"
Lou Brouillard 5'7"/72"
Marcel Thil 5'8"/68.5"
Gorilla Jones 5'9"/75"
Mickey Walker 5'7"/67"
Tiger Flowers 5'10"/76"
Harry Greb 5'8"/71"
Johnny Wilson 5'9"/72"
Mike O'Dowd 5'8"/70"
Al McCoy 5'8"
George Chip 5'8"
Frank Klaus 5'7.5"
Stanley Ketchel 5'9"

Light Heavyweight
Adonis Stevenson 5'11"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Jean Pascal 5'10.5"/72"
Adrian Diaconu 5'9"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Tomasz Adamek 6'1.5"/75"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Graciano Rocchigiani 6'1"/74.5"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Fabrice Tiozzo 6'1"/72"
Mike McCallum 5'11.5"/ 74.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Ray Robinson 5'10"/74"
Donny Lalonde 6'2"
Thomas Hearns 6'1"/78"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
JB Williamson ?
Michael Spinks 6'2.5"/76"
Dwight Qawi 5'5.5"/71"
Matthew Saad Muhammad 5'11"/75"
Marvin Johnson 5'10.5"/72.5"
Mate Parlov 6'2"
Miguel Angel Cuello 5'9"
John Conteh 6'/76"
Bob Foster 6'3"/79"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joes Torres 5'10"/74"
Willie Pastrano 5'10"/72"
Harold Johnson 5'10"/74"
Archie Moore 5'11"/75"
Joey Maxim 6'1"/71.5"
Freddie Mills 5'10.5"/72"
Gus Lesnevich 5'9"
Anton Christoforidis 5'8"/72"
Billy Conn 6'1.5"/72.5"
Len Harvey 6'0"/73.5"
Melio Bettina 5'9"/70"
Tiger Jack Fox 5'11.5"/75"
John Henry Lewis 5'11"/75.5"
Bob Olin 5'10"/72"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Bob Godwin 5'11.5"
Joe Knight 5'11.5"
George Nichols 5'10.5"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Jimmy Slattery 5'11.5"/74"
Tommy Loughran 5'11.5"/73"
Jack Delaney 5'11.5"
Paul Berlenbach 5'10"/72"
Mike McTigue 5'9"/72"
Battling Siki 5'10.5"/75"
Georges Carpentier 5'11.5"
Battling Levinsky 5'11"/70"
Jack Dillon 5'7.5"/72"
Bob Moha 5'5"
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 5'10.5"
Bob Fitzsimmons 5'11.5"/71.5"
George Gardiner 5'11.5"
Jack Root 5'10"/73"
Click to expand...

Your putting words into my mouth. Guillermo Jones was clearly not a natural welter with his frame combined with the higher divisions he fought at, he isn't a natural cruiser either though, he looks fat at cruiser.

As for Hearns, I claimed he was a big welter or a light middle. Hearns had his first 45 fight at middleweight or below, 21 of his first 33 fights were at welter, he didn't have his first light heavyweight fight until he as 29 and then went straight back down to middleweight. He clearly wasn't a natural light heavy at most a natural middleweight.

Just because a fighter ends up in a higher division late in their career it doesn't mean that's their natural weight during their prime and they were always draining themselves down, every person gains weight later in life. Hearns ended up fighting at Cruiser, Toney at heavyweight, Jones Jr at light heavy, Archie Moore at heavyweight were these their natural weights, I don't think so.

You can't just judge a fighters weight division simply by their height and reach and people have different builds, it's why I posted a full tale of the tape for my examples not just height and reach like you did. Going by your criteria Mike Tyson at 5'10 and a 71" reach was a middleweight, which of course is ludicrous when you consider his 20" neck, 34" waist, 26.5" thighs etc.

I also provided more examples than just Hearns, I posted Barkley and Pavlik, Taylor as well and it's clear Hopkins as a middleweight was no bigger, often smaller. Pavlik and Taylor are clearly career middleweights or at most super middleweights as they dropped back down in weight and they are no larger than Hopkins.

Brighton bomber · Nov 8, 2015

Loudon said: ↑

Brighton bomber,

Great post.

Again, it's just a theory, and you may well be right, and I may be wrong.

Yes, I may have concentrated too much on his debut, and I can accept that he may have been out of shape as Rummy has mentioned. Because he didn't fight for a while after he made his debut, and he was a lot lighter upon his return. And I agree that a lot of fighters come in a few pounds over, when they're just ticking over in unimportant non title fights. And I also know that Joe fought more than a few pounds over the SMW limit. But there's a big difference between coming in a few pounds over, and coming in at 6-8 pounds over. Again, me saying that he could have been a natural LHW maybe way off the mark. Yes, he did fight at MW in his 6th fight, but again, he didn't commit to fighting at that weight until after he'd had 20 + fights. So don't you find that at all strange? Did he not take his training as serious when he was younger? There's big differences between what Joe did and what Bernard did. Again, I find it odd that a man who's always had pride in his discipline didn't fight regularly in his natural weight class until his 4th year.

I don't profess to have great knowledge on the subject. But I don't believe he dehydrated himself like your average fighter does. Your average fighter gains quite a bit of weight outside of the ring, and has a walking around weight of a lot more than the 5 pounds that Bernard reportedly used to walk around at. A fighter dropping a lot of weight in training has to dehydrate himself to hit the weigh in, before rehydrating by a good few pounds. But Bernard would not have needed to have done that, if he'd have been ultra strict, and kept his body as near to fight weight as possible. If he'd have been close to 160 due to his incredible discipline, he wouldn't have needed to have dehydrated himself that much to make the weight. His lifestyle simply has to come into play here with this theory.

Roy did the above and it weakened him.

Off topic, did you ever read up on Michael Spink's preparation when he fought at LHW?

This has always fascinated me:

http://www.si.com/vault/1985/10/07/620972/a-champ-with-strange-ideas

You ran 40-50 miles per week?

Wow!

How long did you do that for?

I'll retract my statement that Bernard was a natural LHW. But I still don't believe he was a natural MW. I think he had to work ridiculously hard to remain at that weight. And I want to know why he did that, when he could have fought better fighters at SMW and LHW?

Okay. Again, I'm willing to change my opinion.

As above.

Do you believe he was a natural SMW, who trained himself down and was unbelievably strict upon himself to maintain his MW run?

I don't believe he was weakened. But it would be great if we had first hand accounts of his natural walking around weight, his percentage of body fat, and his rehydration weight.

Again, it's just a theory. I'm not passing anything off as factual here.

Again, other fighters have fought a good few pounds over the limit, especially in keep busy fights. But again, 6-8 pounds is a lot, and I've never heard of anyone being as disciplined as Bernard, and that includes guys like Marvin Hagler.

I can accept this. Again, I'd like to try and find out more information regarding his early career and his percentage of body fat and his rehydration weight etc.

I'm on the look out.

I welcome any and all evidence that contradicts my hypothesis. That's the point of the discussion, to see whether my theory is likely or unlikely. I enjoy the debate, and I'll gladly retract all of my statements if need be.

No, I'm not saying GG isn't a MW.

Again, I'd love to know what Bernard's walking around weight was when he fought at LHW.

The more information we can gather, the better the debate.

I respect all of your points. But again, would a natural MW only commit to fighting in his natural weight class after 20 plus fights, in his 4th year as a pro?

Would a natural MW weigh in between 6 and 8 pounds over the limit, despite priding himself on his fitness?

Have you ever known a natural MW, stay as disciplined as Bernard?

I'm just a fan of the sport who's created a theory. I can't give you a scientific approach.

If you and other members can conclusively prove that he was in fact a natural MW, I'll thank you all for educating me, and I'll be happy to have learnt something new. Afterwhich, I'll move on to a different subject and annoy somebody else.

Thanks for the great debate.

:good
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The Spinks article was quite interesting, Shilstone's methods were clearly far ahead of other trainers at the time. Makes me wonder how the sport has changed over the years. By that article in seems a light heavy walking around at 187lbs to 192lbs wasn't the norm like it is now. Tarver has weighed as much as 190lbs in the ring and often said he walked around at about 200lbs and Kovalev has weighed 188lbs in the ring, I wonder how much more fighters drain themselves now than they used to, especially since the change in weigh in times.

Yes I used to run half marathons regularly, did that for several years but had to stop due to knee problems, I just run for fun now, never more than 6-7 miles at a time.

I think Hopkins was a natural middleweight for most of his middleweight reign but near then end the inevitable happened with age and he grew into a super middle. He was used to just dropping 4-5lbs which is why he was able to fight Mercado on 2 weeks notice and easily make weight, but by the end of his reign he was losing 9-10lbs which suggest he was by then a natural super middleweight.

Your theory is interesting but in regards to Hopkins I don't think it really fits. James Toney would be a better fighter to fit into your hypothesis.

Toney in high school was a 200lbs football player, yet fought at middleweight, struggled with the weight at super middle, looked soft at light heavy but ended up being a cruiserweight and a heavyweight. If you were to question any fighters true weight, then Toney is a better candidate.

bailey · Nov 8, 2015

Loudon said: ↑

I've been thinking a lot about Bernard recently, and his career is fascinating. It draws up lots of questions for me.

I give him all the credit in the world for fighting the likes of Tarver, Joe, Pavlik, Dawson and Kovalev etc, at an advanced age. But the more I read up on him, the more I'm convinced that when he was younger, he made huge sacrifices both mentally and physically, to shrink himself down to MW, for an easier ride.

I know it sounds crazy, but I believe it. And I don't think anyone else but him could have pulled it off. He runs many miles per day, even when he's not in camp. He measures the amount of food that he eats, even when he's eating out in restaurants. He's absolutely meticulous. He even missed his sister's wedding because he was in camp when she got married. His mental strength is something else. He's never more than about 5 pounds over his fighting weight. And I know it sounds crazy, but I think he was a natural SMW/LHW, that over time, tricked his body into believing it was smaller.

He's 6'1, with a 75' reach, and he turned pro weighing 177 pounds. Then after turning pro, he had 4 fights weighing between 164-168 pounds. He then had a further 16 fights, where he only weighed in at under 160 pounds on one occasion. His weights for the other fights were between 160.5-166 pounds. That means that he only weighed in at 160 on one occasion out of 21 fights. Then in his 22nd fight, he got the opportunity to fight for the vacant USBA title at MW, before going on to fight Roy for the vacant IBF title that Toney had relinquished.

So my theory is:

After he'd lost to Roy, he figured that it was possible for him to healthily keep making MW, as long as he made the necessary sacrifices that were needed.

In May of 93, the MW landscape had completely changed. The division that had earlier thrived with great talent, had lost most of its fighters.

A lot of the great early 90's MW's such as: James Toney, Micheal Nunn, Mike McCallum, Nigel Benn, Steve Collins, Chris Eubank and Roy Jones, had all either moved up, or expressed a desire to move up. Also, great fighters such as: Sumbu Kalambay, Herol Graham and Michael Watson, had all retired. And guys like McCllelan and Reggie Johnson followed shortly afterwards. Which of course meant that by the time Hopkins had beaten Mercardo for the vacant IBF title in 94, the division was almost unrecognisable from what it had been just a few years previously. Although it still had a few great fighters, it was much weaker.

In my honest opinion, Bernard took full advantage of the above. He fought a lot of less skilled fighters than himself, most of whom were naturally smaller than him, where he possessed advantages in height and reach over the majority of them. I think he saw an opportunity to make a name for himself and to create history in a prestigious division.

While I respect his MW run, that did contain some very good fighters, again, I think as a whole, it was pretty weak.

The SMW and LHW divisions were much stronger because they contained better fighters.

Again, I appreciate that it sounds crazy to suggest that a guy who fought the likes of Tarver, Dawson, Calzaghe, Pavlik and Kovalev, made the decision to remain at MW rather than fighting at SMW and LHW, because it was easier. But I believe that's what he did.

I think he took the easy route, until he'd achieved everything possible at the weight. After which, he'd got nothing to lose.

According to various reports, he turned down $6m to fight Roy at a catch weight in 2002, and demanded $10m. Which was after he'd fought Carl Daniels, and before he fought Morrade Hakkar.

So below are some questions that I find very interesting:

Do you think that he'd have committed to staying at MW, if in 1993, the division had been as strong as what it'd been a few years earlier?

Was he a natural MW, who achieved great things in the division, and in his career as a whole?

Was he a natural SMW/LHW, who made incredible sacrifices both mentally and physically, to gain advantages over weaker opposition while he was in his prime?

I'd love to read your thoughts.

Thanks.

:good
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This is a very interesting post and one im surprised Loudon wrote

bailey · Nov 8, 2015

I dont think there is one fighter that Hopkins has fought that turned pro heavier than Hopkins was when he turned pro, which does make me think Hopkins has often been the bigger man in many of his fights

BlizzyBlizz · Nov 8, 2015

elmaldito said: ↑

Bhops two masterpieces are
Trinidad and calzaghie.
Vintage Bhop!
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Hop has more masterpieces than that. A lot more.

BlizzyBlizz · Nov 8, 2015

Francis75 said: ↑

If you can make 160 and perform then you are a middleweight. 99% of fighters drain down to their weigh-in weight to fight in a division. If BHop could make weight AND perform at such an elite level for so long then that proves middleweight was the right place for him during that long peroid of his career.
Click to expand...

Thank you.:good

BlizzyBlizz · Nov 8, 2015

Don't give Tarver any excuses for losing to Hop. Roy Jones Jr pretty much lost everything trying to get back to 175 after the Ruiz fight and looked terrible in beating Tarver in that first fight. He wasn't given an excuse as to why he looked so weak after 7 rounds so please, don't give Tarver any weight excuses.

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