The curious case of Jose Luis Ramirez

How does this guy rate?

Seeing him at the time, he seemed nothing too special. A bit of a plodding southpaw with a little pop but not overwhelming power and was good at everything but not especially great at anything.

In certain cases -- Ray Mancini (especially), Hector Camacho -- he seemed completely outclassed.

In others -- a split loss where he knocked down Alexis Arguello, a technical decision loss to JC Chavez, the win over Pernell Whitaker (not deserved, but he was far from outclassed) -- he was right there with the upper class.

And he had some high quality wins -- Sweet Pea (disputed of course), Edwin Rosario (after a close loss the first time), Terrence Ali, an on-the-downslide Boza-Edwards.

So how do you sort through that 102-9 record (81 KOs, only stoppage loss to Ruben Olivares in a big step-up fight 'early' in his career) and find a proper level to consider his legacy?

 

My take is that:

A) He was a late bloomer. His first 40-odd fights include a lot of opponents who, at least on Boxrec, had 1-0 or 0-1 records or were debuting (I take this with a grain of salt, hard to imagine debut guys lasting 10 rounds or seven or whatnot with a guy like Ramirez with pro skills and well above-average power -- I'm sure records of guys on the lower-tier Mexican circuit are sketchy at best and probably many of them had more experience but were low-level opponents). Not much learning going on there. Then he steps up against Olivares and gets squashed. At that point, he's a guy with an inflated record who doesn't have more than a few wins over recognizable journeymen upon which to stand.

B) After that fight you see a lot more established, experienced journeymen starting to pop up on his record and a little more than a year after Olivares, in 1979, he wins the Mexican lightweight title. Less than a year after that, he begins to appear in some showcase fights in the U.S., and then he finally makes a mark and shows up on everyone's radar when he drops Arguello and loses a split decision in a fight in Miami in late 1980.

C) In the summer of '81 he gets basically shut out by Ray Mancini in front of a 'hometown' crowd in Ohio. Fairly brave matchmaking on part of Team Mancini since little is known about Ramirez apart from giving Arguello a tough time (though I think at the time Arguello was probably considered out of his depth against bigger guys at lightweight, that 130 was his ceiling). This is a pivitol fight in Jose's career -- he's got a great record, he's 0-3 in step-up fights and now he looks like a fairly overrated and easy touch for people to use to build their records upon. He goes back to Mexico to defend his national 135 title and lick his wounds.

D) Then a funny thing happens. He turns it around and enters a phase of his career where he begins to prove that he is a world-class guy. Beats journeyman Frankie Moultrie for the NABF title, ho hum, but that earns him a shot against Rosario in Puerto Rico for the vacant WBC world title -- and he loses by two points on all cards. Bides his time with a few tuneups and in late '84 whacks out Rosario in the rematch to win the strap.

E) Loses to Camacho, completely outclassed, nine months later and you'd think that would be it. But he hooks up with the Acaries brothers in France and they rebuild him with a series of wins over credible opponents (Charlie Brown, John Senegal, etc.) and he gets in position to top Terrence Ali for the again-vacant WBC crown.

F) You know the rest -- Whitaker, Chavez, etc. Bigger fights, mostly world-level opponents, holds his own, winning a few and losing a few.

I think it comes down to this:

1. Built a meaningless record early in his career, but after a couple of times thrown in the deep end this guy learned how to swim. Probably winning the Mexican 135 title did a lot to rebuild his confidence and also got him a series of fights against tough, if not world-class, guys and he began to really figure things out during this phase of his career.

2) World-class chin. Apart from Olivares, nobody ever knocked him out. He was able to trade with contenders and champions on equal or near-equal level because he could take what they dished out, even going toe-to-toe with Rosario (who knocked him down in the first 20 seconds of their rematch and raked him over the coals for the first two rounds). His durability allowed him to go deep into fights and his conditioning allowed him to be competitive over the course of longer fights.

3) Better power than probably generally realized. He put Arguello down with a single shot and finally overwhelmed Rosario with a series of power shots. I think he hit hard enough to get any opponent's respect, so even a Chavez couldn't just try to walk through him. Everyone had to respect this element after the Rosario rematch.

No, he's not an ATG. But I think he would have been a handful for most anyone.