The dismissal of Sonny Liston from boxing history.

Agree 100%. If the 1960 version of Liston fought the 1964-65 version of Ali I still see Ali winning 7 out of 10--but I think Sonny could win 3 out of 10.

 

I for one cannot imagine trying to commit strong armed robbery on Sonny Liston , they had to be drunk.

 

Here is the thing with Liston: he had to wait TEN YEARS to fight for the title. And he absolutely crushed Patterson in a way that NOBODY had or has ever done.
Nobody knows Listons age and it is thought that he was close to 40 years old when he fought Ali.According to his sister he was in his forties when he fought Ali the first time.
I think Liston was about 36 for the first Ali bout based on prison records.
Liston also tried to postpone the first fight due to a shoulder and knee injury but the commission refused.
I am not saying Liston beats an Ali at any point- but what I am saying is Liston was not in his prime for both Ali bouts.

 

The truth is a bit more complex than that.

The press did seem to start to warm to Liston towards the end of his title reign, as it turned out to be.

They might have thought that they were stuck with him for the foreseeable future of course.

After the second Ali fight, he was totally frozen out of the picture.

That seems to have really hurt his standing in the sport.

He wasn't ranked, as he clearly should have been, and he had to take fights in Scandinavia, due to licensing issues.

He was a phenomenal talent, and he was treated very badly, but he could also be his own worst enemy.

 

If Sonny had been born 50 years later and learned to tinker as a mechanic, he could have been the one to invent the internal combustion engine!

 

There were actually quite a few people that thought Liston was vulnerable and beatable after the second Patterson fight, since he wasn't that motivated after crushing Patterson twice. Liston spent months training for Patterson, but as for Ali he barely trained and was enjoying the perks that came with being the champion.

Going into the first Patterson fight Liston was extremely angry and really wanted to hurt Patterson and if the law allowed Cus' himself. They made Liston jump through a bunch of hoops, cost him a lot of money, and even made him sign a contract that was completely one-sided in Patterson's favor. The WBA was even embarrassed with the contract Patterson had Liston sign and offered to invalidate the contract, but Liston waived any objection just to get Patterson in the ring.

Liston also didn't do himself any favors by continuing to make mistakes that kept getting him arrested.

Here is a piece with a some former fighters giving their opinion on Liston and his background.

The mood of almost a million paying fight customers changed abruptly last week from disbelief to anger. They had just witnessed World Heavyweight Champion Floyd Patterson being counted out in the first round of his fight with ferocious Sonny Liston - knocked out by body and head punches so deceptively powerful that nobody realized what was happening. They left $100 ringside seats and television theaters all over the country muttering bitterly that the fight was a farce and that they would never come back. They felt that another blow had been dealt to the already dying sport of prizefighting.

But had it? Until the fight's all-too-sudden end the heavyweight division had been only left with any vitality, and this had been supplied by the rise of Liston, menacing and controversial because of his criminal record (Life, feb. 23). Almost simultaneously with Liston's knockout U.S. tax agents moved to seize about $5 million of theater TV receipts to insure tax payment, and New York State, which had banned the fight because of Liston's record, talked of abolishing prizefighting. Could the new champ and his great fists shake off the past and save the sport world he now ruled? Former heavyweight champions shown above have conflicting opinions, all of them talking straight from the shoulder.

Jack Dempsey: New York restaurateur, 67: "I picked Liston to win, but I hoped I was wrong. Nobody respects a tough guy. But if he reforms, I could respect him."

Georges Carpentier: Front man for Paris restaurant bearing his name, 68: "It's up to Sonny Liston to prove he is as big a champion as he indicates he may be. The thing that struck me about the fight is that either Liston is terribly strong or Patterson was imprudent. It was a completely unexpected outcome."

Gene Tunney: Manhattan corporation executive, 65: "Sonny Liston is sure to turn over a new leaf as champion. The responsibility will awaken him to the needs."

Jess Willard: Retired in Los Angeles, 80: "Any-body has the right to be champion if he's good enough. But this deal doesn't please me very much at all."

Jack Sharkey: Professional flycaster, Epping, N.H., 59: "I liked Patterson to win because he knows he's the champion and that makes a difference. It remains to be seen what the other guy will do. It might create a new era in boxing, having Sonny Liston champion. Every fighter wants to lick a tough guy."

James J. Braddock: New Jersey public relations man, 57: "A fighter's a fighter. Character has nothing to do with it. He'll be good. People will come to see him get beat."

Max Schmeling: Owner of two German soft-drink bottling plants, 57: Any man who wants to fight the champion as much as Liston did should be good for boxing."

Jersey Joe Walcott: Camden, N.J. Juvenile police officer, 48. "Liston is not lily-white, but then I'm no Holy Joe. He may make more underprivileged guys on the other side of the tracks think about trying it. I think he'll develop into a fighting champion, but then he may set us all back 50 years in the boxing game."

Rocky Marciano: Brockton, Mass. businessman 39: "I know Liston's; got a past but with a little direction he could become a hero. The fight crowd likes a banger."

Gunboat Smith: Retired at Sheepshead Bay, N.Y., 75: "I was hoping that Liston would get his brains knocked out. He's got no business in the ring. I think boxing will shut own all over the country. Maybe I shouldn't say this. He might come and take a poke at me. But I've fought bigger guys than he. I fought Willard, we came out and I had to look up twice to see him. He hit me and I hit him with everything I had, with no detours, all the way from the dressing room. I blinded him with footwork and got the decision. I was pulling for Patterson. You've got to have somebody the champion who's got class. Like Dempsey or Tunney. They got class."

The New Champion:
Charles (Sonny) Liston, 28, acutely conscious of his new responsibilities, had his say after the fight: "If the public allows me the chance to let bygones be bygones, I'll be a worthy champ. If they'll accept me, I'll prove it to them. I disagree with Patterson on one thing. He never went around very much in public. I always go to all the Golden Gloves bouts, the small club fights and everywhere there is a fight show. I think the champion should get around and show himself and that's what I'm gonna do."

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Terrific quotes! Cheers.

 

Great source info Swag. Thanks.

Not going to mince words - it’s actually ridiculous that the claims of Liston blinding opponents are still being pushed around.

The claims have already been debunked at every angle anyone has ever tried to play.

Anyone making the claim should list their evidence and reasonings via bullet points - it would then be very easy to strike out each and every “reason” with direct, factual and fully rationalised counters.

 

The referee even stated the following "I walked over to Liston's corner and put my nose on both his gloves. I didn't smell anything but the leather. I even felt the gloves. Then I turned around to Dundee and said "There's no liniment on his gloves."

Source: https://ibb.co/XyFb6Nm (Provided by SolomonDeedes)

I honestly don't understand why this rumor won't die.

Machen jumping on the bandwagon was equally laughable.

Liston didn't use liniment on Ali, Machen, or anyone else.






Well except Williams. Would explain his sudden turnaround after being battered, having his nose broken, and nearly being knocked out by his own admission.

 

This is not true. Liston debuted professionally 9 years before his title shot. Liston waited almost exactly 2 years for his title shot after beating Machen and Folley and becoming the number 1 contender.

After the Ali loss Liston won 14 in a row and 15 of 16 with 14 stoppages. If your thesis is to believed his last win over Chuck Wepner would have come when he was 44. As it is with the 1930 birthday he'd be a few weeks shy of 40. I think its much more likely the 1932 birthday is correct than 1928.

 

I would definitely not believe the 1932 birthday. It’s based on nothing but Liston’s word.

1927/1928 is backed up police records.

1922/1923 and 1929/1930 are backed up by census records.

 

What’s the point of this over arching attempt at making Sonny a victim.
Here’s the net/net:

He quit on his stool instead of going out on his shield in the first fight without sustaining any sort of massive damage.

He clearly tanked the rematch, making him look like the underworld thug his worst critics always made him out to be.

Sonny may have been an amazing fighter as his 58-62 career span showed but his fall from grace was abrupt and ugly …. It’s also what he’s most remembered for , fair or not.

 

Ok NINE YEARS is still a long time to wait for a title shot.
The Department of Corrections who booked him have a completely different age then what Liston claimed latter on.
He was closer to forty then he was to thirty when he met Ali.