The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

Honestly--I don't think so. (And I'm saying this as a HUGE Smokin Joe fan--probably my all-time favorite fighter!) Ali didn't have the legs, stamina and reflexes that he had pre-exile--consequently Frazier was able to land a lot of heavy shots applying constant pressure throughout that fight. A pre-exile Ali's legs, stamina and reflexes I believe would neutralize that pressure. Plus, Ali was really starting to pack a solid punch--(look at the KO of Zora Folley--Ali landed a beautiful right that put Folley away.) I think Ali would be landing heavy shots against Joe just like he did in the first few rounds of the FOTC but wouldn't need to lay on the ropes and clinch nearly as often. Bottom line--a 25-28 year old Ali at the peak of his game beats Joe--even the Frazier of FOTC vintage. Just my humble 2 cents!!

 

100% this. He looked so perfect in part during 65-67 because he didn’t have a fighter within 100 leagues of Frazier in the ring with him. Ali said as much after the fight (“I think he would’ve whupped me quicker in 1967 because I couldn’t sit down on my punches then the way I do now” paraphrase).

There is certainly some truth to Ali’s having lost some ability - some - during his layoff. But no time out has ever been more wildly exaggerated, hell I don’t know if any story in Human history has, than Ali’s three years out which is spoken of as though it were three decades.

Again, there is just no way known he could’ve been as competitive in that fight, with that Frazier, had he lost anywhere near the ability as is often claimed. The waters Frazier took him to, nobody in the 60’s could even get near duplicating. & Frazier’s win has been diminished & downgraded ever since. A terrible shame.

 

I’ll agree with your Duran example - will you agree with my statement you don’t know too many Champions who were 25 years old, 29-0 & still improving? What areas & to what extent do you see Ali going forward from his 1967 iteration?

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

You're statement is correct but not regarding Ali, certainly not IMO. One could argue quite reasonably he was at his peak when exile started and may not have improved - it's a fine line.

Potential improvements would have been minor. Perhaps a few functional pounds of growth and a touch of strength.

Experience would have been the biggest change. Fighting high calibre and at times bigger opponents who pushed him and forced him to adapt. He rarely had to use his strength and grapple for position prior to exile. Some people mistakenly think it wasn't there but rest assured it would have come out earlier if needed.

 

He’d have to fight Frazier once to learn how to cope with him at any point in his history is my guess. That’s all we can do. Speculate.

 

If the same flaws are present in Ali which they were youth probably just changes timing. Frazier would do it again in the 60s. IMO.

 

I disagree tho it's a reasonably open question. Extra youth, extra life in the legs and an active schedule make all the difference for me.

 

What is unbelievable? That you don't share that point of view?

 

A lot of opinions floating around in this thread and here are mine ...
Ali was much better and much harder to fight and defeat or even be competitive against pre-exile.
Frazier may have been better than anyone Ali fought pre-exile but irregardless , the pre-exile Ali has a far superior stylistic match up vs the best of any Frazier that the post exile, period.

 

Frazier is always going to be a tough out if you believe the slugger/boxer/swarmer approach. That being said Ali wasn't an ordinary boxer.

 

For sure … the prime Frazier to me isa top tenP4P all time heavyweight and a guy like Ali who wasn’t a puncher and big but not super heavyweight size by todays standards had a tough match up stylewise, all the more reason his speed would have been an asset opposed to having to trade

 

Just as I’ve interpreted it - Ali gave Joe a terrific going over in the first 4 rounds of the FOTC.

The commentators marvelled at the punishment Joe was able to take and still be able to come forward. They also kept wondering periodically how much more punishment Joe could take.

Strange fight in terms of the announcers attitude. Even when Ali was belting Joe, it was Joe receiving credit for being able to take the shots - Ali landed a LOT on Joe - meanwhile, many of Joe’s punches were low - including on the hips.

Ali tired notably around the 4th round mark - that’s when Joe was able to really step in and claw back the points deficit to some extent.

Thereafter, Ali fought in relative spurts, availing himself of mid round rest periods and 2nd, 3rd, 4th winds etc.

The Ali of the first Chuvalo fight doesn’t tire - he keeps punching through and well beyond the 4th round without tiring.

I really think THAT Ali does a lot more facial and overall damage to Frazier - and at whatever point 66 Ali might possibly tire - well, Joe will have already been rendered somewhat unviable anyway.

Look at (and hear - the audio is excellent) the punches Ali laid on Chuvalo. They were very hard shots - they caused George to back up on several occasions and some even bodily shifted the Canadian Iron Man.

The ‘66 Chuvalo match is actually a very good fight and top performance by Ali - in fact, I’ve just whet my own appetite to watch it again.

That’s an Ali who was just 1/2 lb shy of the Ali that turned up for the FOTC - but with more tone and better weight/muscle distribution imo.

 

He doesn’t tire because he’s in there fighting George Chuvalo & not Joe Frazier.

 

I am going to point out that whereas you may or may not be right, in the long run he benefited from taking the time off. He saved a lot of wear and tear on his body that would have been spent fighting retreads and guys who had not yet built a reputation. Instead, had a lot left for the seventies, when the division flowered.

Had he tore himself up for four years and then fought the Nortons, Fraziers, and Foremans....we would not think of him as the greatest. Now man can survive all that damage.