The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

You're firing on all cylinders today, unlike the red wiggles car!

 

I agree with your thinking to an extent.

However, I think when Ali became tired against Frazier, it had a lot more to do with what Ali no longer was as opposed to what Joe was putting to him.

After Ali became fatigued within himself, that’s when Joe was able to step in and really stick it to Muhammad.

Quarry didn’t present with anything Ali hadn’t dealt with before yet Ali was clearly fatigued after just 3 rounds against Jerry. Ali came back with a permanently reduced gas tank.

He was also still dealing with rust and lack of full match fitness up to and including the first Frazier fight.

Ali had a somewhat tougher time against Chuvalo in their second fight (post exile) than he did in their first fight.

Same opponent but it was Ali whose deteriorations were far more notable and expensive than Chuvalo’s.

In fact, not having Ali’s rare abilities in the first place, Chuvalo stood to lose a lot less over the same period of time since their last fight.

IIRC, Chuvalo himself observed that Ali had lost a step or two since their last encounter.

 

Hahaha, tbh, I used to be more a Hi-5 man myself. That (wake up) Jeff guy used to scare the kids...

 

When Muhammad Ali returned after his enforced idleness in Oct 1970, sure he was a harder puncher but he was very vulnerable to the blows of his opponents in his comeback, he looked vulnerable against Oscar Bonavena on Dec 7 1970, then his vulnerabilities were exposed in his fight against champion Joe Frazier on March 8 1971. Ali's vulnerabilities were: Lack of stamina, his legs were gone, he was very hittable, his reflexes were gone. In 1967, Ali had his reflexes, his timing, his footwork, his stamina, and his speed. Remember Ali had been gone from March 22 1967 until his return from exile on Oct 26 1970. During that time without his title and boxing license Ali, Ali lectured on the college circuit to make enough money to pay his lawyers fees to fight his Draft Evasion Conviction and to support his family. Meanwhile Joe Frazier was very active, Ali had no time to workout and spar. Ali looked rusty in his comeback fights, did not look like he did against Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley, two 1967 challengers.

 

This is what I’m talking about when I say the extent of exaggeration surrounding Ali’s exile is truly limitless.

“His legs were gone, his reflexes were gone…”

Those were fifteen of the most gruelling rounds in modern MoQ Boxing seen - ever. & I had Ali losing it by one round. It was dead even on my card going into the last stanza. If Ali’s legs & reflexes were, “gone” he must have been a literal superhero with Captain America powers pre-exile. Such is his exaggerated legend, I suppose.

Recall that this, “legless, reflexively destitute fighter” would go on to beat prime George Foreman, Frazier twice, Norton (once in reality), & be Champion of the division again.

 

Admittedly it’s been years since I scored it but I had Ali sweeping the first five rounds, though I really should sit down with it again soon. I remember having it dead even after the 14th (obviously all momentum was with Frazier). What we take from that is obviously a little different - but Ali had a lot more rounds in the bank going into that fight than Frazier did. By March 1971, Ali had fought eighteen rounds in his past two matches. Frazier had been in the ring for only six in the same number of matches. In fact we have to get to the last four Frazier fights to total a larger number of rounds fought than Ali had had in just his past two.

It’s clear Ali was a little stronger & more effectively thudding in his punches post-exile, & clear he lost some speed, yes, from his fights with Terrell & Williams. He also, to my thinking, simply under-estimated Frazier. You can see his thinking when he talks about Frazier pre-fight. He’s obviously trying (& I think succeeding) to convince himself that Frazier just isn’t that good. He lacks all Ali’s gifts, & is thusly inferior. A terrible error in judgement in hindsight of course, which IMO played at least as big a role in his downfall as this near-mythical series of pre-exile abilities he had lost.

I think I will sit down with that fight this weekend, it’s been too long. Although not the conventional position, I hold it as the most entertaining fight of the three. Both men’s abilities had degraded too much by Manila for that to be quite as fun to watch, IMO.

 

There is a clip of Cus D'Amato and Ali where Cus points out even a virtually imperceptible loss of speed will result in Ali getting tagged where he wouldn't have when he was younger. Even though Ali accomplished more in his second career than his first he was a diminished fighter, not as diminished as some would suggest, but diminished, nonetheless.

 

Here we go. In his second career Ali showed he was a tough and cagey fighter. That being said your reflexes don't improve with age.

 

They also don’t vanish, or even hugely degrade, by age 29.

 

Yes, but in the three- and one-half years he was exiled he would have presumably improved by gaining more experience while still possessing world class athleticism and reflexes. The OP suggests that's no big deal.

 

Experience. Well, I don’t know. Who do you see him fighting for valuable experience in 68-69? Unless you’re talking about Frazier himself.

 

That's a good point. Frazier is always going to be a tough out. I don't see the pre-exile Ali having much of a problem with Norton. He fights Foreman differently.

 

I personally would have ended the post here

 

Excellent post.