The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

Wlad and Lewis are two examples that improved from that age. I'd say Louis continued to improve until he enlisted at 28 too. Duran was another who kept on improving throughout his 20's. I think you can make that case for Hagler as well, and probably Charles.

You have a good case that SRR had his apex performance in his last fight against LaMotta. Same with Holy's rematch against Bowe, but we don't know what exact role HGH played there tbf.

Whitaker might have peaked for the Chavez fight in his late 20's. Monzon, Bob Foster... Canelo, of course.

Then you of course have Johnson, Moore, Walcott and Hopkins, but they were late comers so they aren't that comparable.

I'm more curious about what examples we have of fighters who didn't have their career derailed and still stagnated in their 20's... Benitez, yes, Hearns after three KO's probably as well, even though he was in his early 30's when beat Hill.

Anyhow, I don't think there's a lack of examples of fighters who were a fair bit into their pro career and still improved after 25.

 

Cheers Boke.

 

Fine post.

There’s clearly a number of features to the fight open to subjective interpretations, not least being the relative nature of performance - eg: how much was Ali degraded within himself vs how much was he stifled simply due to the quality of the opponent in front of him?

Ali looked rough and rusty vs Bonavena but it was in fact a god send that he at least got in those 15 hard rounds just prior to facing Frazier.

Another 3 rounder like the Quarry comeback fight (at the end of which Ali was clearly puffing) would’ve done him no favours.

The outcome of the Ringo fight on its own might’ve bolstered Ali confidence vs Joe even more - since Ali actually stopped Oscar - whereas Frazier couldn’t, despite 2 go arounds and Oscar also dropped Joe.

I agree, the FOTC is the greatest and most entertaining of the trilogy. An incredible fight.

And while it’s fair to duly analyse and identify where Ali was at, at that point in his career - there is definitely that feel of reluctance (I feel it) to take any credit away from Joe in his finest hour - Frazier was literally prepared to die to win that fight.

For all the punishment Joe took he just kept coming - and meted out his own fair share of brutal damage to Ali, with unforgettable punctuations in round 11 and round 15.

 

I could not agree more regarding Frazier's heart, courage, and will to win in the FOTC--and it was his finest hour! And it some ways you could say it was Ali's finest hour! I honestly think ANYBODY else who stepped in the ring with him that night gets beat. It took (by most rankings) an all-time top 10 HW at his peak to win a life and death war that resulted in an extended hospital stay--with the prognosis for recovery in the beginning not looking good! That's what it took for Joe to win that fight!!

 

I guess it might be the exception when a fighters cerebral prime (boxing IQ) aligns perfectly with his physical prime.

If a fighter is learning all the time, with each and every fight, by rights, his boxing IQ should continue to increase and likely peak some time after his physical prime.

If the IQ isn’t always improving, hitting its ceiling early, it’s peak measure likely wouldn’t have been all that anyway, lol.

 

Great post as often the case .. only question, when was pre-exile Ali ever tired ?

 

Cheers HE. I don’t think I said pre exile Ali ever tired...I’ll have to re-read myself to be sure though - I write a lot of crap, lol.

I did say IF the 60s version did tire against Frazier - and I was only entertaining that possibility in the very later rounds.

I suspect that, if anyone, Frazier could still possibly challenge the limits of peak Ali’s stamina with his seemingly impervious go forward.

There were times when it seemed that Ali even had to take a breather from pounding on Chuvalo - and there was George, still there ready to punch back whenever Ali took a small respite.

If you had to constantly punch a heavy bag for 15 rounds, without getting hit back, it would be quite taxing in itself.

I think Holmes experienced a similar stamina challenge when he pounded on poor Randy Tex Cobb round after round...lol.

As Cobb said, something like: if the fight was 3 rounds longer he would’ve won since Larry’s hands wouldn’t have been able to take it any longer...what a character!

 

He was never pushed in his first career. I suspect it was three parts mastery and one part competition. Chuvalo, Terrell, Liston, and Folley were no jokes

 

He was challenged by a very good Doug Jones. Henry Cooper gave him a very challenging handful of rounds, the Patterson he dic3d up went on to defeat Machine, Chuvalo, Bonavena and give prime Quarry and Ellis hell .. no one handled Liston like that before or after , his loss to Martin was by a big shot at an ancient age ... the mid 60's Ali was simply dominant ...

 

I'm not going to stop anyone from holding him in such high esteem. Patterson is a nice scalp as is Henry Cooper.

 

But Muhammad Ali did not use his legs against George Foreman in Oct 1974, I have seen Ali fight since the first fight against Floyd Patterson on Nov 22 1965. If I had to choose the best version of Ali, I would have chosen the first title reign Muhammad Ali from 1964-1967, that Ali would have not looked like the Sta-Puff Man and got his jaw broken by Ken Norton and weighed 221 lbs, with zero reflexes. Ali in his first title reign trained, weighed usually 211 to 212 lbs and glided around the ring and as champion never touched the canvas. He never took the punches that he took from 1970-1978. We all know that Ali was afflicted with Parkinson's but the Rope A Dope did not help his condition. You are entitled to your opinion, I did not happen to see Ali fight on You Tube like most youngsters, I saw him defend his title against his European Challengers, George Chuvalo, 1st fight in March 1966, 2nd Henry Cooper fight, May 21 1966, in fact I saw that one live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports, the Brian London title about live as well as the Karl Mildenberger title defense live on Sept 10 1966, the last three were pre recorded one week later. I scored the Fight Of The Century like you had it scored, heard that fight live on the radio, Ali took too much punishment, in my opinion his legs were gone. Ali in 1967 would have never laid on the ropes against Joe Frazier, he would have slid off and moved for 15 rounds. When a fighter is inactive for 3 and a half years, he loses most of his physical gifts, timing, reflexes, stamina, and footwork. What Ali retained was his speed and gained punching power as he usually beginning in 1970 fought flat footed. But I am not going to debate or argue the points about Ali. Even Ali admitted he could not use his legs against Foreman, so he adapted to Foreman's style and the Rope A Dope was born.

 

Agreed about Foreman - to clarify, that was a more general point about how Ali’s post-exile weaknesses have been endlessly played up, & how good he still really was in spite of vast efforts to minimise Frazier’s achievement.

Closer to the point, surely you cannot watch the FotC & tell me Ali was reflex & leg poor? Did he lose a step? Yes? Was he still faster & better conditioned than almost any Heavyweight who ever lived? That fight & its nature proved it beyond a shred of doubt.

 

Whatever the whys and wherefores, as fans I think we were robbed given the sudden ending to the Liston rematch.

Ali looked so fine for as long as the fight lasted. He was an unusually low 206 lbs (4 lbs < than Miami) but he still looked built, good muscle, and though lighter, perhaps even built up that much more as compared to his physical appearance in Miami.

He was gliding from opening bell like there was no tomorrow, beautifully balanced movement and his hand speed was other worldly.

Too bad we didn’t get to see more rounds of the Lewiston version.

Like punchers and their hardest shot ever thrown, even the fastest fighters would have their fastest punch.

The right hand Ali dropped on Liston was literally nigh impossible to detect in real time without the aid of subsequent slow motion replay - and then to see that it actually connected solidly was another thing again.

 

I agree we were robbed, but not in the way most people would think of it - by Liston simply laying down. The real loss for the fans, IMO, was the delay to the fight due to Ali’s operation. Reportedly, Liston got himself into tip-top shape & was hungry & focused, but couldn’t sustain the fire through the postponement.

I doubt very much he’d ever have won a fight with Ali in late ’64-early ’65, but we’d have seen a much better fight.

 

Yes I’ve read Liston become very despondent after the Boston fight was postponed.

It’s gone now but there used to be a 3 min odd clip of Liston on YT training and being IV’d just prior to the Boston match.

He was lean, mean, angry and very focused. Seriously ready to go. Liston was easily coming into land at 212 lbs for the fight, possibly even a bit less.

The IV was conducted just days out from the fight and the announcement of Ali requiring the emergency hernia operation.

I agree with your retroactive prognosis - Liston might well have done that much better if they fought as per the original schedule - but the speed disparity in all respects (hands, feet etc.) was always going to see Ali win at that stage in their respective careers.

A prime vs prime match would’ve been very interesting...by 64/65 Liston was a far cry from the 59/60 version of himself. The prime version of Sonny would’ve given Ali a hell of lot more to think about.

Just imo, I think Ali took Liston more seriously than any other opponent during his 60’s career - elevating his related performances to sublime levels. Ali’s performance in the Williams fight is very pretty but I actually prefer his work in the first Liston fight.

The adrenalin (including a healthy measure of fear) coursing through him was palpable and Ali used it all to his most positive advantage.