The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

On page five of this very thread, let alone this forum, I can be seen quoting Richard Murrieta who states Ali’s, “legs were gone, reflexes were gone.”

If I had the inclination to humiliate your banal & obviously observable to the contrary request, I could literally spend all week showing you examples, across forums & in documentaries ad infinitum. As it is, you asked for one, & I didn’t have to go very far, did I?

 

I agree with that as well, never said anything to the contrary. Simply that the extent to which the loss has been blamed on Ali losing ability has become one of the most histrionic & ludicrously over-compensatory claims in Boxing history.

 

I wish Foreman would have knocked Clay out in round 1!!!!!

 

You'll find more than one on this thread who says he was improved after the exile. That Ali was in any way shot in the early 70's is very much a minority opinion (and I am actually surprised you found a single post that put it in those terms). There has been many, many threads through the years about what would happened if they fought without the exile and many thinks Frazier would win any way, and those that don't still think it would be a tough competitive fight.

And FOTC is any case always among the top when best win/performance ever is discussed here. Never seen Holy's wins over Tyson rank as highly, for example.

And this thread reflects that. Some for some reason think that Ali even improved after the exile, most think he lost a step but still was a terrific fighter. You are in other words among the majority opinion here. So quit your whining.

 

I'll test this directly:

Does anyone here disagree with both of the above?

 

I think Ali was still an INCREDIBLE fighter in 1971--and his performance against Frazier after 3.5 years idle and only one legitimate tune-up bout to prepare (the Quarry fight ended too quickly to really test him) illustrates his greatness! But I don't see how anyone can deny the loss of speed, timing, and stamina from the pre-exile Ali. Pre exile Ali doesn't lay on the ropes and clinch like he did in the FOTC.

As I've stated--I'm a HUGE Frazier fan--he's probably my all-time favorite fighter and his victory over Ali in the FOTC was one of the all-time great moments in the sport. But I don't see Joe beating Ali during the 1967-70 timeframe if Ali had been able to continue his career and they fought during that span. Ali was simply too fast and too sharp for Joe--and he had more endurance then he had in 71. I think Joe takes a pounding like he did in the first few rounds of the FOTC but it would be throughout the fight.

If I had to make a prediction about how it would go if they had met between 67-70 I would say Ali by at least a comfortable UD--and possibly a stoppage in the later rounds. Only Joe's incredible heart and will keeps him going.

 

Agreed.

 

I totally agree, but Joe Frazier was quite a competitor.

 

I really don't know if anyone who ever stepped in a ring had more heart than Joe--(which is one of the reasons why he's my all time favorite fighter!!)

 

How does it feel to want?

 

Nobody can retain physical gifts without working out for 43 months. Muhammad Ali last fought on March 22 1967 in Madison Square Garden, a mandatory title defense against WBA no. 1 challenger, 34 year old Zora Folley. While slightly competitive, Folley was stopped in round 7 by the much quicker Ali that ended this match with a well timed right hand. After that match, Ali had two fights that were next on his agenda, both were already signed, a title defense against challenger Floyd Patterson in April 1967, then a month later on May 27 1967 in Tokyo, Japan, a title defense against Oscar Bonavena, both fights fell thru, for on April 28 1967, Ali refused military induction, was indicted and arrested by FBI agents for Draft Evasion, a Federal Offense back then, also Ali was stripped of his boxing title although a few boxing bodies continued to recognize Ali as champion. On June 20 1967, Ali was convicted of Draft Evasion in Houston, Texas, sentenced to 5 years in prison and fined $10,000.00. Ali posted bond while he appealed his conviction thru the various courts. In his conviction Ali's license was revoked because he was termed a Felon, as mentioned before, Ali could not compete in any kind of boxing match without a boxing license, he lectured on the college circuit to make some kind of income to pay his attorney's fees and support his family. Ali did not return until Oct 26 1970 against no.1 contender Jerry Quarry. When a fighter is not working out, he does tend to lose a step in the ring, the legs are usually the first to go, then the stamina, timing and reflexes, they become vulnerable to punches that they were accustomed to escaping before.

 

Yes, he lost a step. But I think you also agree that the early 70's Ali was still an excellent fighter and FOTC a great win.

 

If they meet already in the late 60's, which they most likely would have if not for the exile, Frazier isn't quite the finished product yet either, so that plays in as well.

I'd say that you sentiment is the dominant one. That Ali still was an incredible fighter, but not quite what he had been.

 

“I stand corrected” would have taken too much out of you to post, I suppose.

 

it’s denied because he never fought anyone capable of giving him a fight even close to as tough as Frazier did in ’71, & because of how close Ali was able to still run him. If Ali had beaten two or three guys similar in style & ability to Frazier, I would concede the point - but I reject this notion the loss had more to do with what Ali was lacking than it did the unprecedented quality of opponent.

You fight as well as your opposition allows you to. It’s easy money looking a million bucks vs George Chuvalo or the corpse of Cleve Williams, isn’t it?