The fine art of... slugging?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Absolutely!, May 29, 2013.


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  1. Absolutely!

    Absolutely! Fabulous, darling! Full Member

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    OK, think of the word "slugger" and I'd wager that the first image to come to mind is of a crude, free swinging brawler, lacking the speed or finesse of his more fleet footed opponents and open as a barn door. It's no secret that slugging's often seen as something more limited fighters do, because they lack the skills/intelligence/athleticism to fight any other way. But is this always the case?

    As with any style I believe there are techniques to be learnt and utilised in order to excel, though these techniques aren't always so apparent in the ring, nor are they as clearly laid down in writing. A good slugger by his nature isn't going to impress technically, but rather make his opponent look bad, as Matthysse did to Peterson a few weeks back.

    So, assuming you agree with the above premise, what would you say are the key skills necessary to being a good slugger, and who would you say typified them most? How much of success in this style depends on physical qualities, and how much on mental? Can slugging ever be an option for a thinking man as a means to victory, or is it inherently too dangerous a means of fighting to employ?
     
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The main thing is to facilitate getting your opponent to where you want him to be. Foreman famously landed a push, it wasn't because he was an idiot that didn't know what he was doing, it was because he was pushing guys into positions to receive an introduction to regret.

    Oakland Billy Smith, against Johnson, he repeatedly feints his man with his head and left until he gets him into position to throw the right

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    You're right, because someone like Lewis who throws the jab to control the opponent somehow becomes a master boxer by virtue of that fact, whilst someone like Foreman - who achieves the same thing with a push in the above example - or Smith, leads with the right after showing really subtle skill on offence are labelled brawlers.
     
    McGrain, May 29, 2013
    McGrain, May 29, 2013
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  3. Absolutely!

    Absolutely! Fabulous, darling! Full Member

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    Perfect sort of response I was looking for. Thanks.

    I think that intelligent pressure is a cornerstone of the style. Which isn't to say constantly coming forward throwing punches, but constantly keeping the opponent guessing, nervy and afraid to engage. Foreman, in his comeback, was a master at this, though that was partly due to his fearsome rep as a puncher.

    Feints and subtle movements are key to achieving this, along with wake up shots, to let your opponent know you can hurt them at any time.
     
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
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  4. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

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    Mayorga is probably the purest high level slugger in the sense of not giving a **** about defence and just throwing wild punches.
    See round 1 from the Trinidad fight.
     
    dyna, May 29, 2013
    dyna, May 29, 2013
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  5. Ricky42791

    Ricky42791 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No Mayorga is a joke, Musashi Miyamoto in his book of strategy go rin no sho or "book of five rings" is an essencial read for any martial artist/fighter. He makes a point that "Speed is not part of the true Way of strategy. Speed implies that things seem fast or slow, according to whether or not they are in rhythm. Whatever the Way, the master of strategy does not appear fast." the way I interpret this is timing over speed. take for a recent example maidana vs khan when Maidana landed started to land that big overhand right especially the one in the tenth round that rocked khan badly that is an example of a slugger using timing to combat speed. khan is much faster but Maidana studied his rhythm and knew where khan was GOING to be when he was circling left toward Maidana's right hand. Dempsey vs Tunney two is another example of timing over speed in the 7th round when Dempsey landed that leaping left hook that started the barrage that knocked Tunney down, Dempsey knew where Tunney was going to be and executed a beautiful left hook that rocked him despite Tunney being much faster of foot and hand. Rocky Marciano vs JJW I getting off that right hand first is another example. The slugger doesn't have the speed or the finesse to outbox most opponents to he must learn to set up his devastating power. Foreman as aforementioned did a good job of this particularly in his comeback. There was no way Foreman was going to out speed any over his opponents so he did what he had to to make his bombs land. As an amateur I try to emulate the slugger style and it is more about timing then just winging hail mary's. Sure there are some hail mary's that connect through chance but for the most part punchers have to find away to set it up. I'll provide examples below
     
    Ricky42791, May 29, 2013
    Ricky42791, May 29, 2013
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  6. Absolutely!

    Absolutely! Fabulous, darling! Full Member

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    I'd say he's one of the purest high level brawlers in the sport, though I realise some people might use the two terms interchangeably. For me fighters like Mayorga etc are at the extreme end of the spectrum; guys who fight on instinct and sheer meanness to beat their man. Their style is very much the upper limit of the untrained wildman, effective for its unorthodoxy and the toughness that lies behind it, but with very little craft or tactic.

    The type of slugger I'm interested in here is at the opposite end. Someone who utilises trained techniques to implement their game plan. Feints, parries, subtle head movements and half steps to cut off the ring, double and triple jabs, tempo varying and so on. Basically stuff we don't normally associate with the term slugger, but which is very much a part of their style at the upper level of the sport.
     
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
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  7. Ricky42791

    Ricky42791 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ricky42791, May 29, 2013
    Ricky42791, May 29, 2013
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  8. Absolutely!

    Absolutely! Fabulous, darling! Full Member

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    Here's Edwin Valero vs Antonio Pitalua:

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    Look how he keeps Pitalua on the backfoot without overcommitting by constantly throwing jabs and straight rights, varies his angles by moving side to side, and every so often leaps in with heavy body and head shots in combinations. Very few wasted punches. Look how often he gets into range to land hurtful shots and how he gets out again when Pitalua attempts to return fire. Once he hurts his man he instantly goes in for the kill, doesn't smother his shots and maintains his technique, total focus. Chilling stuff. Makes his opponent look like an amateur.
     
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
    Absolutely!, May 29, 2013
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  9. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Foreman knew exactly what he was doing when he shoved opponents...a very smart tactic for a slugger.
     
    red cobra, May 29, 2013
    red cobra, May 29, 2013
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  10. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Pretty awesome **** there.hadn't seen this one before. What a bomber this guy was.:good
     
    red cobra, May 29, 2013
    red cobra, May 29, 2013
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  11. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Hitting with leverage is very definitely an art. "Championship Fighting" by Dempsey is the primary reference material among literature on the subject. The complete text and illustrations are freely available from a number of on-line sources today of this once challenging book to obtain.
     
    Anubis, May 29, 2013
    Anubis, May 29, 2013
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  12. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    I also think his efficient footwork in cutting off the ring was exemplary. He knew exactly when to take that step to the right in chopping down the ring on a retreating Norton, got big tall cutie Dino Denis to trade with him, and forced Ali to beat him off the ropes.

    For 15 rounds, Walcott got Louis to follow him around the ring like a dog. I can't see Jersey Joe moving like that on Foreman for such an extended period. [JJW could also elude and hit with deadly force when cornered though.] Liston wasn't terrific at cutting off the ring either [with his jab, he didn't need to be]. Frazier and Dempsey closed quickly, but they weren't guys who sawed off the floor surface like that. No other heavyweight champion was.

    During his comeback, George took on another master of this tactic in Qawi. What Dwight did at his best was very simply to keep his lead foot between his opponent's feet. It's that elegantly methodical, but how commonly applied?
     
    Anubis, May 29, 2013
    Anubis, May 29, 2013
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  13. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Good thread. The slugger has to compensate a lack of fundamentals with raw instincts and crafty, disguised traps. Their skill and ability to impose their kind of fight against more conventional fighters goes under-appreciated because of the rougher aesthetic, but in the ring, it can be just as effective.

    :deal
     
    Bogotazo, May 29, 2013
    Bogotazo, May 29, 2013
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  14. MMJoe

    MMJoe Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That jumping in and keeping his chin up so high may have cost him against the good boxers. Other than that, a great shame he was a scumbag, probably the purest puncher since Julian Jackson's heyday.
     
    MMJoe, May 29, 2013
    MMJoe, May 29, 2013
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  15. MMJoe

    MMJoe Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Foreman was very crafty, very smart boxer.
     
    MMJoe, May 29, 2013
    MMJoe, May 29, 2013
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