The flaws in Ali's game

The obvious technical flaw - pulling back from the left hook, which got exposed as his reflexes deteriorated. He wasn't overly effective to the body, though he did throw the jab there more often than common perception. He struggled on the front foot, when a fighter (such a Jimmy Young) forced Ali to come forward, he wasn't very effective at all. The only time I remember him being effective coming forward was when he was going for the kill when his opponent was hurt.

These flaws were overcome by freakish natural ability, an iron jaw and the heart of a champion.

 

Poor to the body and not much of a left hook.

Still "The Greatest" though...;O)

 

Pulling back, carrying his hands low, both of which certainly caught up with him as he got older and his reflexes faded.

I guess you could argue that his greatest flaw was that he never had sound textbook fundamentals, or certainly didn't implement them. That's part of what made him so exciting, but ultimately hurt him as he got older. His old tricks didn't work as well.

 

He struggled with defensive fighters, like he did with Jimmy Young, because he didn't know how to attack the body and didn't know how to fight as the aggressor.

 

Not sure how they're flaws in his "game".

The decisions in the Norton, Young and Shavers fights were disputable. Could've gone either way. I do feel that Norton deserved the nod though. You can't hold these decisions against him because they were in no way robberies, just close, disputable decisions.

Henry Cooper hurt Ali, and he bounced back up and crushed him in the next round. Just the sign of a champion. The "long break" was 12 extra seconds.

Ali knocked Foreman out, it wasn't a close decision. A re-match was probably deserved when Foreman fought his way back to the number 1 contender... but it didn't happen and the KO8 is all that matters.

Yes there were some easy defences, as result of a weakening late 70s division and his old age choosing the easier path. That doesn't change the fact that his HW resume is FAR better than anyone else, and far deeper too.

 

I've heard this more often, but having recently watched his fights in the 60's, i strongly disagree on the left hook comment. Very often he'd throw a 1-2 followed by a sharp, punishing left hook. His punches were much crisper and accurate in the 60's and he used a larger variety of them. He went to the body as well back then, though not as much.

He never was good at glove blocking (which became most apparant during his fights with Frazier), but that came naturally because his defensive mechanism was designed around insane reflexes, which allowed him to either intercept the punch with his arm or use footwork/upperbody movement to evade the punch. When those reflexes faded, so did the effectiveness of his defence.


I'm telling you, there's a huge difference between Ali in the 60's and the 70's; a different fighter. He threw all kinds of punches from various angles, mixed in the body, and packed a good punch, too. Stopped something like 25 out of 28 opponents; hardly a light hitter. I also think he looked borderline sadistic, unlike in the 70's. Sonny Liston after his career best win? He was toyed with. Floyd Patterson? Dito. The only one who gave him a tough fight was George Chuvalo, but he still lost nearly every round.


It's a damn shame most of his fights recalled are those in the 70's, because they were bigger. But he wasn't nearly as good as in the 60's at that point, outside of the FOTC and the first Quarry/Bonavena fights.

 

He held his hands down too low within range and relied on leaning back from punches. His superb foot movement and ring generalship saved him many times in his prime when opponents seen openings, yet couldn't capitalize. However, his lack of basic fundementals was only a negative when he slowed down post exile.

IMO his lack of basic fundementals was a 'positive' when at his best. Speed and athleticism obviously helped him overcome extremely fatal situations. But being unorthodox and different stylewise from other fighters helped. He jabbed from the chest and the waist. He never retained a defensive posture after throwing punches.

He was fluid, technically, in his prime when throwing punches and got off as well as any fighter in history.

When he slowed down he took more punches as his style was always the same. He could only do what he did in his prime for brief periods.

His inside work was amateurish and his body punching was non-existent.

 

1. He, for natural reasons, didn't feel the need to fight in close, but when he did (Manilla, Quarry 2) you can see that he mastered that part quite well.

2. Same here. He seldom had the need, but he could have done more against Terrell and Bugner. He had some opportunities for nice hooks to the ribs there.

3. A myth IMO. He, for example, had a beautiful left counter hook which he utilised often when you watch him closely. Blin and Quarry 2 being good examples, but there are many more.

4. He was shot against Young and especially Holmes. Jones countered Ali/Clay with a right, his jab didn't play a big part. Lyle hardly landed a jab on him, but Ali quickly found out that he easily could land his right over Lyles jab, which he did throughout the fight. Norton gave him some trouble with his jab, though.

5. The only who really punished him for this was Frazier in FOTC. Afterwards he accepted that his legs no longer allowed him such freedoms and became much better with his guard.

6. This was mainly in the latter stages of his career. Even in his prime he could give away rounds, but this was only when he figured the other guy out.

7. Norton III was peharps a gift, but the fights against Shavers and Young was merely close. They could have gone the other way, but they were not "gifts". Besides, this was a shot Ali.

8. Actually, he just got about 10 seconds extra. Watch the film. I never heard before that smelling powder was illegal in the UK, no one seemed to object to Dundee using it, for sure,

9. Might have been. That would have been more to Ali's rapid detoriation after Manilla than anything else, though.

10. Well, the main thing is that he took on everybody that mattered. There's hardly any stoned unturned in a career stretching over 20 years. That's rare.

 

It wasn't 3 minutes.Check the video of the fight again.It was just a few second over the one minute interval.Dundee did use smelling salts though.

 

Is Ali "losing points" for the Spinks loss? I see questions in Norton and maybe (big maybe) Shavers but not Spinks, Ali was just too old.

John, good points on the 60s vs 70s Ali (and I agree totally) but I still think the left hook was used in the 60's to finish of a combination the "right away" rather than inflict any real damage most of the time.

 

Personally, I think he put in really solid/very good perfomances against Ellis, Quarry II, Norton II, all the Frazier fights and against Foreman, as well as dispatching of guys like Mathis, MacFoster, Bob Foster, Patterson, Lyle, Bugner etc. while just doing enough.

That's not bad in my book, even if he was a superior athlete in the 60's.

 

Folley was mainly a counter puncher. Ali hardly struggled with him. He was SHOT as well as in bad shape against Young. You can't really draw too much conclusions out of that one, just like you have to be careful with the conclusions you draw from Louis's losses to Charles and Marciano, and Dempsey's losses to Tunney.