The Four Who Baffled Liston Feb 1964 article.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by choklab, Jun 28, 2016.


Page 3 of 6
  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,674
    7,654
    Dec 31, 2009
    I agree that Sonny Liston in 1960 proved himself outstanding beyond dispute. Those were the wins that made him in my eyes.

    But I was not around at that time. Maybe Mainstream focus on Liston began after that?

    Having done all that by 1960 there was not much more for Sonny to do until he could get a title fight.

    Perhaps Mainstream focus on Sonny properly started around 1961 in light of that 1960 form and to the wider public, at least their experience of Sonny, really was the "six minutes" in three televised fights of 1961,62' and 63'. This is how it appears to be reflected at that time going by this peice.

    I know the Westphal fight was on the world's first closed circuit double header. On the same night Patterson fought Mcneeley. I imagine it was sold as two warm ups for the showdown with each other?

    Westphal was less significant by our standard but in turns of impact perhaps the magnitude of the focus of being on the world's first live double header was more significant to the public?
     
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    #31
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,003
    48,095
    Mar 21, 2007
    There's nothing "wrong with it", at all, for Burt. From the perspective of interpreting the tiny, tiny amount of success that exists on film and their support of this writer's conclusions there's loads wrong with it.

    Whitehurst was beaten wide, wide by Liston in that fight. Wide. He was dominated and rendered helpless. He was beaten, very very handily.
     
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    #32
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    It must only count as accurate if it's the truth and it isn't!
    You go on defending the indefensible and making a laughing stock of yourself.

    eg Marshall so baffled Liston ,[who was having his 8th fight to Marshall's 26th,] that after breaking his jaw he managed to win a split decision from him.

    In their second fight Liston floored him 4 times in the 6rds the fight lasted.
    In their third fight Marshall did not win a round ,fought just to survive and was on the verge of a knockout several times.

    Tell me what is baffling about that?

    The only thing baffling here is your continued defence of a totally discredited agenda driven article that is total sh*t!
     
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    #33
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,003
    48,095
    Mar 21, 2007
    The title really hurts the article though. The "four who baffled Liston" won a tiny handful of rounds between them and were, overall, out-classed, to a man. This quote is especially ridiculous:

    "Cleveland Williams all but knocked Liston out."

    That's preposterous.
     
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    #34
    Guru88 likes this.
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,674
    7,654
    Dec 31, 2009
    It's a great article. With a lot of rare stuff in it.

    Williams staggered Sonny but Liston weathered it because he was much the better fighter. I dont buy that Sonny was "all but knocked out" either, but in context with the topic it was about as close to Sonny being in trouble as he had then come up against. I dont think our disagreement with the writer of the seriousness of Listons situation effect the accuracy of the rest if the information.
    Or that it makes less fascinating to read the personal insight of his former opponents .

    One thing the article does clear up is Sonny was not laughing when he got his jaw broken by Marshall.

    Everything is open to interpretation.
     
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    #35
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    Plenty more to come B.E.!:good
     
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    #36
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007

    WRONG! Liston was frustrated by Machen's counter punching and went low unpurpose. He was flirting with a DQ. You are 100% wrong on this one.

    To baffle someone, you do not need to beat them.

    Liston fails to stop Whitehurst in two tries. Yes--Whitehurst was badly hurt outside the ropes in the last round, but it doesn't change the official result.

    Liston lost to Marshall and failed to stop him in the 3rd match.

    He failed to stop Summerlin in both matches.

    Now let's suppose Liston NEVER fought Machen, Whitehurst, or Summerland, and there was a fantasy fight 7 times between them and Liston?


    Still with me?

    Who here honestly would pick Sonny on points every time...Zero knockouts? Indeed, hence these three baffled him from that point of view. The results did not live up to Liston " the monster's " expections . No sir they did not!

    One match with Summerland was a split decision.

    Suppose Liston never fought Marshall, would anyone pick him to lose? Now way, yet he did!:deal
     
    Mendoza, Jun 29, 2016
    Mendoza, Jun 29, 2016
    #37
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    "John Summerlin of Detroit, Michigan's ranking heavyweight, was no match for Charles Liston, former International Golden Gloves heavyweight champion from St. Louis. Liston pounded out a unanimous decision in the eight round televised main event at Motor City Arena Tuesday night. The St. Louis slugger who weighed 206 pounds carried the fight through most of the early rounds and finished with added glory by staggering Summerlin, 193, into a corner during an explosive final round." - United Press Liston had a total of 5 fights when he beat Summerlin .

    "unpurpose":huh:lol::rofl

    Thanks for the laughs:good

    1960-09-07 : Sonny Liston 211 lbs beat Eddie Machen 196 lbs by UD in round 12 of 12



    • Unofficial AP scorecard: 118-115 Liston
    • Unofficial UPI scorecard: 115-113 Liston
    "Both judges and referee Buck McTiernan scored the bout the sameĀ—the first round even and the next nine for Liston. Marshall spent most of his time retreating." - Associated Press "


    "Only two opponents were able to last the distance: Bert Whitehurst twice in 1958 (he barely survived the second fight, getting knocked through the ropes in the final seconds of the bout) and Eddie Machen in 1960. Both adopted ultra-cautious tactics, and Liston won comfortably on points. "
     
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    #38
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    Patterson was trying to win ,that's why he got blown out early.Machen ,Marshall, and Whitehurst ,concentrated on just surviving.
     
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    #39
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,003
    48,095
    Mar 21, 2007
    How has it "cleared that up"? I've got no idea, at all, if Sonny was laughing or not. I wasn't there, and i've never seen film of the fight. But Marshall said he was, and Sonny said he was. But this article doesn't mention it so he wasn't?

    How does that make even a modicum of sense?

    Apart from the question of whether or not Liston was laughing when Marshall hit him, apparently.
     
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 29, 2016
    #40
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    I used to wonder why you , normally pretty equable, got so wound up with Choc, not anymore!:-(
     
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 29, 2016
    #41
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,674
    7,654
    Dec 31, 2009
    The article does mention the "often circulated" story that Sonny's jaw only broke because he was laughing and it says "it's generally accepted-but not by the people who saw the fight, and certainly not by Marty Marshall". It then goes to reproduce much of the fight report of this early fight for the still developing Liston, a difficult report to trace since it was not a big fight, and in it, no mention of this laughing incident at all.

    Dont you think it's likely a reporter would put something like that in his report if it actually happened? One fighter getting hit whist "whooping with laughter"?

    Until a report can be reproduced that says otherwise I dont think it sensible to conclude there is any truth in it.

    well it makes a modicum of sense because it cannot be sensible to believe it until there is a report or a witness that backs up the whooping with laughter claim.


    I dont take for gospel that Jimmy McCarter handled Sonny Liston quite like he says, or perhaps that Eddie Machen even had that bad of a shoulder. That is open for interpretation. but there has to be some credence in the insight of Whitehurst when some of the stuff Burt talks about can be understood from watching his best moments (of an albeit losing fight) with Sonny that was Filmed.

    The article agrees with your version of the Machen fight. "Although he was never in danger of winning the fight since he seldom bothered to risk a punch of his own" depending on interpretation, the Film backs this up as much as the stuff Whithurst says.

    Whilst there is no film, there has to be more credence to the opinion that Sonny was not whooping with laughter?
     
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    choklab, Jun 29, 2016
    #42
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,114
    Jun 2, 2006
    There was a report, from a witness.Sonny Liston.
    How did Sharnik know what the audience at the Liston v Marshall 1st fights opinion was, did he interview any of them?
    Did he even see the fight himself?
    All he has to go on is Marshall's own version of what happened ,why should that be any more reliable than Liston's take on it?
    Liston himself said he was laughing at Marshall's antics and consequently had his mouth open, that would be sufficient to cause a broken jaw if a punch landed at that point, he did not need to be "whooping with laughter". Exagerrated and over the top ,"gilding of the lily".
    Sharnik seems to want to steer people towards his own
    version of events,in the pursuit of which he is prepared to bend and distort facts into hyperbolic balderdash.
    E.G.
    1."Liston was all but ko'd by Williams".

    2. "Liston was cowering from Folleys punches."

    3. " DeJohn had to be restrained from going after Liston when the fight ended "

    Pure negative spin on the facts


    Liston was never in danger of being ko'd by Williams.

    Liston did not cower away from Folley's punches,he sensibly covered up from the onslaught.

    DeJohn did not have to be restrained after the fight,he felt Liston had intentionally hit him when he was down.Sonny threw an uppercut when DeJohn was kneeling on the canvas .Liston was unaware DeJohn was on the floor ,after the fight was stopped in his favour he went over to apologise but DeJohn wasn't having any of it and got mouthy ,Liston then took a swing at him and it was he who had to be restrained.


    It's all designed to portray Liston in the most negative light twisting facts to suit Sharnik's agenda.

    Was he even at the DeJohn fight? The Folley one?


    Sharnik wrote another article , an interview with a full time sparring partner , Ben Skelton, who sparred with Liston, he said that McCarter was too big and strong for Liston to boss and that Liston disliked him because of it.
    Here it is.I found it interesting and have an open mind on it,
    because it isn't Sharnik's "interpretation of things".
    http://www.si.com/vault/1962/09/24/624848/a-sparring-partner-looks-them-over

    The McCarter story at least has this one person backing it up,so we can probably give it some credence.

    Here is Skelton's record.

    http://boxrec.com/boxer/35944

    Personally I think it's a much more interesting article and certainly more credible.Sharnik comes across as no fan of the Big Bear but we do have some technical points from Skelton that are insightful imo.

    I do thank Chok for pointing me in the direction of this article, even if I disagree almost entirely with his opinion on the first one .:good
     
    mcvey, Jun 30, 2016
    mcvey, Jun 30, 2016
    #43
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,674
    7,654
    Dec 31, 2009
    That's another good article!:good

    I like this guy's approach in interviewing sparring partners it's much more intresting than opinions of "experts". Why don't we get this kind of technical description anymore?

    I like what Skelton says about what Redish had Sonny do, work on his positioning so that he could reach Floyd over a greater portion of the ring.

    It was very insightful to mention Floyd not using he crouch close up -which he did, because of the opening on offer from his particular stance and footing.

    Also the mention of Sonny getting tired about the round seven mark because of the type of training he was doing at that time, something Ali exploited two years later. Earlier, In 1960, Sonny put in an excelent 12 rounds versus Machen and must have be doing more running then?

    Working closely with both guys it just goes to show how difficult it is to predict a result because hes worked on the strengths of both fighters.

    Thanks for posting!
     
    choklab, Jun 30, 2016
    choklab, Jun 30, 2016
    #44
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,003
    48,095
    Mar 21, 2007
    This idea that Sonny was "whooping with laughter" is total fantasy introduced by yourself in order to make the contrary opinion more reasoned. You are the only person, ever, that I have read, who has stated this. You state it not once, not twice, but three times in that post.

    Even Sonny doesn't say he was "whooping with laughter". IF it happened, Sonny went "haha" and got hit. Nobody, in the world, is trying to say he was "whooping with laughter" - just you.

    That, in and of itself, says everything.

    Liston said he laughed, or "gaped" in amusement and got hit. This is not something that need even have been seen by the tiny amount of press at ringside. This is a story that has been repeated by perhaps 100 newspapermen over the years and by Liston.

    Here, we have ONE article. In it, the writer states that Marshall stated that Sonny didn't laugh.

    So we have two stories, one written in ONE article, one written in numerous articles and three biographies; each story is backed by one of the fighters.

    My position: despite fighter testimony and numerous articles, we can't KNOW that it happened because there's no film.

    Your position: ONE article claims it didn't happen and a third party claims one of the fighters stated it didn't happen (with no direct quote, just a description where he doesn't mention it) and it's been "cleared up" for all time. Preposterous.

    See the difference?
     
    McGrain, Jun 30, 2016
    McGrain, Jun 30, 2016
    #45
Page 3 of 6