The Four Who Baffled Liston Feb 1964 article.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by choklab, Jun 28, 2016.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I felt the absence of a laughter incident, a whooping or yelling incident making print on the Detroit Free press report compounded it as impossible but, I now accept this would be far too unpopular since there is no film.

    Ultimately, I was wrong, only film could ever clear this up, without film it cannot be proven one way or the other. I would be wasting my time. And also so would anyone insisting it actually happened.

    Therefore rather than being cleared up, it isn't. The story remains a story.
     
    choklab, Jul 2, 2016
    choklab, Jul 2, 2016
    #76
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    For me, viewing Marty's complete bout with Harold Johnson is all that's necessary to extrapolate what happened in Marshall-Liston I. Marty did whoop and sort of jump against Harold, but Johnson was already a great veteran who wasn't about to be unsettled by any unorthodoxy.

    I've no doubt Marshall's characteristic ring behavior did cause Liston to gape at a moment of jaw fracturing impact, just as Norton broke Ali's jaw at a moment Muhammad had his mouth open to trash talk Ken.

    Liston's career ceased being any kind of mystery for me a long time ago. There do remain a few unanswered "what ifs?"

    What if Sonny had rematches with Johnny Summerlin in 1955, because John improved his showing from their first bout to their rematch six weeks later in 1954, then had an outstanding 1955. I long expressed curiosity about Machen with Liston if both were at 100%, no injured right hindering Eddie, or damaged left hampering Sonny as it did for Patterson II (where Liston inflicted all the destruction on Floyd with his right alone) and Clay I (a situation where the very best version of Sonny would have hardly had a chance to even lay a glove on him to the body or head after that initial right to the heart - the opening rounds of Ali-Patterson I and Ali-Cooper II prove how completely hopeless Liston would have been in their 1964 Boston rematch, unless Muhammad collapsed in the ring with that hernia attack).
     
    Anubis, Jul 2, 2016
    Anubis, Jul 2, 2016
    #77
  3. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Sonny Liston had an awful lot of rematches for somebody with such a "fearsome" reputation, and Machen wanted him a second time ASAP after Eddie's right healed.

    Rematches didn't happen like that with Foreman, Peralta being the notable exception. Was it because George didn't want to give resistant opponents like Levi Forte a second chance? Or was a single bout with Foreman enough for anybody not named Peralta, Frazier or Lyle (who came out of retirement hoping to get his hands on George again).
     
    Anubis, Jul 2, 2016
    Anubis, Jul 2, 2016
    #78
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    .
    Marshall was an awful opponent for any young fighter but it is clear Liston learnt a lot from him. Against a much smaller Johnson Marshall was decked hard late in the fight but had looked a strong, busy, rough nuisance until then.

    The rounds Marshall gave Liston was worth a lot more to him than the kind of blow outs Sonny later became famous for. It is surprising the experience was not more valuable to him against Ali? Cooper concentrated on speed and aggression against Ali where as Sonny who had fought a dancing energizing Marshall three times still set off against Ali twice as he had versus Floyd.

    Summerlin and Machen looked good enough against each other on film to be a handful against anyone. I would like know more about the Summerlin fights. He certainly seems to be a tough character. Machen certainly looked more of a puncher early in his career but sometimes the tactics an opponent puts on another can deplete all leverage. Perhaps a Machen v Liston rematch would have solved if this was the case? Certainly Machen would have been much better preparation for Liston against Ali. I have always felt Machen would have given Liston the rounds he lacked between 1961 and 1964.
     
    choklab, Jul 2, 2016
    choklab, Jul 2, 2016
    #79
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Machen's highest ranking post-Liston (post nervous breakdown) was #6. There was never any question - none - of his taking on Liston again and given that he lost pretty big to Liston in their first fight, that's more than fine.

    http://www.boxing.com/survivor_type.html
     
    McGrain, Jul 2, 2016
    McGrain, Jul 2, 2016
    #80
  6. Foxy 01

    Foxy 01 Boxing Junkie banned

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    So basically some slime ball writes an article which should be headed,

    " I believe Sonny Liston is a semi literate street thug with links to organised crime, therefore I am going to do my best to discredit him "

    and it is a " story " ?

    GTFOH. If you want to be groupie FFS pick something better than a scabby journalist.
     
    Foxy 01, Jul 2, 2016
    Foxy 01, Jul 2, 2016
    #81
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  7. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Magnificent writing job on two fighters who I admire greatly and am fascinated by. Excellent McGrain, just excellent.
     
    red cobra, Jul 2, 2016
    red cobra, Jul 2, 2016
    #82
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Champions have defended against #6 contenders before. The point I was making was that Sonny may have maintained his 1960 form had anybody been good enough to give him more rounds. Machen and Whitehurst types were able to give Liston more rounds than Westphal and Patterson.

    I was not making a case for Machen being avoided at all since Sonny rematched Howard King, Marshall, Summerlin, Whitehurst and Williams. Proving Sonny sought competition before the championship. The way it worked out (through no fault of his own) the fights after 1960 did not offer liston enough competition in preparation for Clay.
     
    choklab, Jul 3, 2016
    choklab, Jul 3, 2016
    #83
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cheers chum.
     
    McGrain, Jul 3, 2016
    McGrain, Jul 3, 2016
    #84
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Many times, but rarely ones they have so clearly beaten. If a champion clearly, clearly defeats an opponent that opponent needs to establish himself a little higher up the ladder than #6 if he wants a rematch.

    That said, he was much higher in the WBA rankings, so a re-match was never completely out of the question.
     
    McGrain, Jul 3, 2016
    McGrain, Jul 3, 2016
    #85
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    And that was a good article by the way. It's the first time I saw Patterson v Machen it was an intresting and high skill level fight.
     
    choklab, Jul 3, 2016
    choklab, Jul 3, 2016
    #86
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