The Great Heavyweight Debate: Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Louis - Who's the HW GOAT?

One guy RULED for 12 years with an iron fist while the other guy struggle in his era with losing the title back and forth.

 

That's one way to put it, a very shallow and biased one of course.

 

Should the guy that lost during his heyday be docked some ATG points vs the guy that went 12 years without a defeat?

 

I've never commented about a Louis-Ali match-up because I've never wanted to face up to the outcome which I have always envisioned. I revere Louis' record and performance in the ring and it pains me to write this, but in my opinion Ali's foot and hand speed (and when I think of Ali I immediately picture the young, pre-exile version) would befuddle and confuse Joe. I picture an ending much like the first Schmeling fight, but more lopsided if Muhammad really decides to go after Joe rather than carry him.

 

Context is EVERYTHING. Ali's true heyday was in the 60's and during his ban. Ali was also facing ATG top 10 heavyweights. His top end opponents dwarf those of Louis and tho he had a few post peak losses his longevity was also immense.

Louis was done with word titles 16 years after his debut, Ali 20 years after his debut. Ali was regaining the world title 16 years after first winning it, Louis never saw it again after the 11 year mark. Louis got the early absolute thrashing in his prime, Ali didn't.

So honing in on little details without context doesn't do the debate justice to say the least.

The fact of the matter is one can pick either and be in a strong position. Does one like the unbroken longevity or does one appreciate Ali's much better top end opponents, quality over quantity. Either is a perfectly valid choice.

I like Ali for the reasons stated but have no problem with anyone picking Joe. Both resumes are a country mile above anyone in third place or later.

 

The other guy as you call him fought far tougher competition than the one guy the ruled for 12 years. That's not to say anything bad about the one guy who was great but the other guy beat EIGHT fighters that are in the IBHOF and he avenge every loss except for two at the ass end of his career when he shouldn't have been fighting.

 

Are the likes of Norton. Frazier ete ranked higher because they fought Ali?? Louis also has a strong list of impressive champions like Max Baer, Primo Carnera, Max Schmeling, Joe Walcott and Jack Sharkey. Do they ranked lower because Louis blew them out of the water where the others gave Ali hard fights?

 

No.

 

Hi Buddy.
I feel you rather lost the augment somewhat with the assertion that Louis fought and beat " impressive champions " when I conjure up in my mind impressive champions, Carnera and Sharkey ( poss Bear as well ) do not loom large, rather, Marciano, Johnson, Holmes, spring to mind, so I think it slightly waters down your case, sorry but that's how it leaves me, but your entitled to your opinion, and I fully respect it.
stay safe amigo.

 

Case for Ali: Beat Frazier and Foreman, who rank above Louis's best wins.

Beat a couple more ranked contenders.

Never really got knocked out.

Case for Louis: Clearly established his superiority during his reign. Never left any doubts as to who was the better fighter in rematches (whereas can you really argue that Ali was superior to Norton or Frazier?).

Fighters surviving to lose a decision was a rarity.

Beat almost as many ranked contenders as Ali.

Both guys fought longer than they should've have and lost to fighters they had no business losing to.

You can make the case for either one being on top of the other.

I like Louis because he was both tremendously skilled and strong willed while also having bone crushing power.
Ali had the skill and more speed but his lack of power makes me value him just a tad less between the two. Very subjective of course.

 

True, Ali definitely beat higher quality personnel. But in fairness, I think Louis did have the better record vs top 10 fighters than Ali, if we're using Ring, as a source (which seems the norm in these debates).

 

Hi Buddy.
Neat and informative post thanks, with regards to Alis/Clay lack of power, for sure he didn't carry Louis weight of punch, but up until the Folley fight, he had stopped or Ko,d 21 out of 29 roughly, amongst the victims were, Liston, Williams, Mildenberger, Patterson, and Folley himself, so not too shabby when all considered, after the exile with him putting on weight and looking bigger, he punched with authority, Blue Lewis, Lyle, Bonavena, Ellis, Mathias, and a slew of others were stopped or KO,d, so yes not a one punch knockout artist, but a heavy puncher in some respect I would say.
nice chatting, stay safe buddy.

 

Louis reigned longer, whilst Ali beat the better calibre of fighter overall.

Ali moved better and despite Louis' good arsenal of subtle defensive techniques and know how, Ali seems to be harder to hit clean. Louis hits much harder and whilst Ali could put punches together well, especially in his prime, a lot of his flurries are overwhelming with speed, whereas Louis overwhelmed with speed and power. His punching mechanics are so good we oft forget that he had great handspeed and punch placement designed to hurt and open punching opportunities that his combinations maximised with damage and advantage taking. Every punch was thrown with intent to open up another punch opportunity and Louis was extremely well balanced and positioned to throw the next one.

Louis and Ali are far ahead of number 3, not literally, but in the combination of reign, defences made, ring record, skills and my assessment of H2H abilities that it does make the gap seem huge and insurmountable at times.

I rank Ali above Louis, as he doesn't have Frazier, Foreman and Liston on his record, let alone other notable fighters that Ali bettered that Louis' overall record doesn't match up IMO. However, as said already, Louis was more decisive in victory than Ali typically was, tempered with the Foreman fight trumping anything that I believe Louis did in the ring - age, opponent and circumstances considered.

It's really close but I lean to Ali and don't really have a doubt about it.

 

Agreed, and Ali's best wins do rank over Joe's best, and by Ali's best, I mean Foreman mainly and then Frazier, because as previously said, Ali did win 2/3 against Joe but he never really sealed the deal.
The rest I don't really see how you can put them above Louis's opposition.

I don't think Norton is better than Schmeling or Baer.

Quarry, Young and Shavers are Pastor/Nova tier.

Patterson is Conn and Henry Lewis tier.

Liston tried to blind Ali and then quit on his stool. The rematch was a travesty. He can have all the power and chin he wants, if he lacks mental fortitude I'm not going to rank a win over him as better than the wins Louis scored over other top fighters who he had to practically maim to keep down.

Ali did beat better opposition, but how much better that opposition was is overestimated.