The Great Heavyweight Debate: Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Louis - Who's the HW GOAT?

Difference here being Joe came back to completely and utterly destroy Schmeling whereas Ali had to resort to illegal clinching to squeak by the second bout and then was on the verge of quiting in the third while Frazier wanted to go on.

Louis had tough fights just like Ali did.
The difference is Joe came back and established superiority beyond any doubt in rematches.

 

I don't know what you mean?

 

Louis also lost 3 years of his prime serving his country during World War 2

 

Patterson was an excellent fighter. One of the best ever between 176 and 200 pounds. And I don't think any fighter beats him below light heavyweight. He'd slaughter even ATG middles like Hagler and Robinson.

That said, guys that Louis beat like Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Jersey Joe Walcott (btw, id pick the 51 Walcott that warred with Marciano to beat 59 Johansson) and Billy Conn would all be credible threats to the Patterson show.

Max Baer, if he shows up to win, would be AT LEAST as dangerous to Patterson as Johansson and was closer to Sonny Liston when it came to size and punching power.

 

Maybe Ali struggled with Frazier because Frazier was in a different zip code than Schmeling. Frazier was the greatest pressure fighter to ever live. He was the worst stylistic matchup for an out boxer like Ali. I would add Schmeling actually knocked out Louis. That's a lot more to avenge than a decision. Ali wasn't in his prime when he fought Frazier. Ali beat Liston at the same age that Louis was knocked out by Max Schmeling. In fact Ali was only stopped once in his twenty-year careeer when he was a mummy.

As to the Ali- Frazier trilogy the results are what the results are and the results are Ali 2 Frazier 1 with Frazier unable to come out for the fifteenth round of their rubber match.

P.S. Clinching isn't illegal. It's only illegal if you clinch and hit which Ali never did. As to quitting there's nothing in Ali's history that suggests he was a quitter.

 

Google a guy called "Sonny Liston" and check his boxrec while you are going.

 

I meant Ali's 60s opposition as a whole. If we're talking about size, punching power and chin then Max Baer is comparable to Liston, however, when it comes to skill then Liston trumps Baer

 

Figured this thread was worth a bump
. I love both these fighters

 

Henry Hascup's breakdown had them both beating 32 fighters that were ranked at the time. Ali had a higher number top 5 ranked while Louis had a higher number nr 1 ranked.

 

Either one is a good answer imo. Louis had that fantastic run from Schmeling 1 until he retired the first time, no losses and only one controversial win.

Ali didn't have a run like that but had the blotches on his record after his prime and went 5-1 against Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

So it's a bit what you like: the consistency or the big wins.

What bothers me a bit is the usual quite disingenous focus on Cooper and Jones. So he had trouble in a couple of early fights? I mean if you want to play that game there's apart from the actual loss to Schmeling also Farr, Godoy, Galento, Conn and Buddy Baer for Louis. All those were closer to Louis's prime than Jones and Cooper were to Ali's. To focus on the struggles of just one of the fighters isn't really an objective take.

 

I couldn’t say I have an issue with either choice, but one thing I would point out - & I think the poll numbers here speak to it - is the overlooking people do on the subject of consistency, & how difficult a thing it is. You look at the résumés, & Ali gets big points for the eye-catching names, but to run twelve friggin years beating all comers - there is a reason we have lots of great fighters who have big names on their CV, & not one, ever, who went a dozen years unbroken as Champ besides Louis. It’s easier to beat a George Foreman or a Sonny Liston on one night than it is to run even five or six years unbeaten as Champ, let alone double that stretch.

This is probably the most under-estimated feature of either mans’ career, but if fully grasped for what it is, it’s a hammer blow in Louis’ favour.

 

They are both the GOAT on alternate days.

 

Agreed with this take. What skews the polls is that big names are easier to digest than consistency is.

 

There is no such thing as a Goat in any sport. The people who use the term just use it because other people use it.

Joe Louis beat who exactly? A bunch of small guys who were under 200 pounds or in some cases even under 180 pounds. The big guys he beat like Buddy Baer, Abe Simon and Primo Carnera were extremely slow ( Kind of like the modern Joe Joyce which shows you how bad the current era is). Both times Louis fought Abe Simon in "title" fights he was coming off losses. Even doing his own time frame the fighters he face doing his title reign were considered bums. Louis pretty much avoided any top level guy if he could.

Ali beat George Foreman by luck, beat a old Sonny Liston who was overrated, beat Joe Frazier but only after Foreman destroyed him first. Lost all 3 times to Ken Norton and this is according to Ali who flat out stated he knew he lost to Ken Norton and knew he could never legit beat him. Ali beat Joe Bugner twice but never looked good doing it. Ali did beat Ron Lyle but was down on the scorecard and got questionable stoppage. Then Ali beat smaller guys like Floyd Pattterson was a sub 200 pound guy.

Ali's sad fanbase will tell you he was old at 29 when no other heavyweight was old at the same age. I never heard anybody say well Holyfiled , Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes, Wladimir or Vitali Klitschko were old at 29/30 but Ali was old. You know why these Ali fanboys say this? Because they heard some "boxing" historian on TV say so.

Great fighters have to fight other so called great of at least good fighters. Great fighters will have victories were they completely dominatated world class fighters who their size, in their primes. Name on so called world class fighter who were still in their primes, who were actual heavyweights that Ali dominated. Did he dominate Frazier when he got hit upside the head more in 1 fight than Foreman got hit in his whole entire prime. Did Ali ever dominate Ken Norton? Even with Foreman did Ali dominated? He laid against the ropes hoping Foreman got tired. A raged filled Foreman punched himself while being held behind the neck.

Ali dominated no fighter who was a world class elite heavyweight who was still in their primes.

 

I just feel as if Ali is all wrong for Louis. Louis had issues with lesser movers than Ali, and only ended up winning certain fights with men like Conn or Walcott due to knockouts or through being given the champion's benefit of the doubt.