The Great .. Sonny Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by surfinghb, Jun 29, 2021.

  1. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

    22,386
    4,865
    Jul 15, 2008
    Perhaps you should try reading more and bitching less .. I wrote anything is possible but I doubt it in this case. Your claim is that a fighter who never knocked out a top fighter early with a single shot in his entire career struck lightning here against Liston while screaming at him to get up to stop faking and mine is that the whole thing reeked and I think there is an far better shot that I'm right than you are. Maybe you can get that ?
     
    White Bomber likes this.
  2. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,768
    6,206
    Aug 26, 2017
    why not? I've seen boxers get knocked out on a lot less to the viewer eye. Liver shots, kidney shots, gut shots, solar plexus shots from jabs . temple shots, chin shots /// etc etc etc ..It happens , its boxing .. Boxers get knocked out all the time with body shots , so why not a perfect punch on the chin ?? Its a weak argument to downplay the punch when you have no idea where it landed and the potential damage it could do ... That is my point .... whether Liston was dazed, saw stars, disorientated, hurt , he couldnt get back to his feet, whatever ..He didnt make it up before 10 , thus its a KO ... If the fight was fixed , then it was fixed ... But as it stands now that is a legit KO by ALI from all that Ive looked into it .. And I'm a huge Liston fan ,,, so I'm very willing to be corrected if I am wrong
     
  3. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,803
    1,117
    Mar 31, 2021
    And what is the point I'm missing ?
     
  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    39,293
    18,932
    Apr 27, 2005
    I don't think fight II was legit but Ali could certainly do damage with a single shot.



     
    ETM, surfinghb and swagdelfadeel like this.
  5. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

    22,386
    4,865
    Jul 15, 2008
    The point your missing is that you don't agree with him so he pivots to a default of trying to diminish the quality of your opinion. Nothing new.
     
    White Bomber likes this.
  6. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,768
    6,206
    Aug 26, 2017
    I agree. ..Ya I think the Ali didnt have any power thing gets played out a bit too much here at times .. Interesting you posted this John, although it is at different camera
    angles than the Liston punch, It appears to me after watching them both of few times ,,,to be a lot like the same "style punch" . Pull counter ( although he doubled up his right with Folley ),shorter punch to ensure accuracy , legs were crossed, thus all the power generating from upper body with plenty of leverage and follow thru ... The devil is in the detail .. You see the same similarities ? or am I reaching here
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
  7. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

    22,386
    4,865
    Jul 15, 2008
    I try to chose my comments very carefully JT ... I wrote KOing a fresh , top contender early with a single shot. Foley was as old ( or almost ) as Liston in 67, was getting pounded for rounds ( into the seventh), was tired and never known for an iron chin to start .. I have seen every Ali fight on film many times .. as exceptional as he was, he never was a puncher, period .. and again as I wrote , while anything can happen like when in his case he landed a perfect shot against Bonavena in the 15th in 70, I said I doubted it against Liston in Maine and nothing from the dicey circumstances going into the fight , the cast of characters involved, Ali screaming at Liston to get up because no one would believe his act and Liston's second flop when seeing the bout was not stopped convinces me otherwise. It makes the KO in Carnera vs Sharkey 2 look like Marciano vs Walcott 1. If you know the detailed history of the climate going into that bout ( as I'm sure you personally do ) you know how tense the time was and the threats off violence in the air months after Malcom X was killed in February 65. Ali received multiple death threats and Liston in return had death threats made against him while in training camp by the Black Muslims .. Liston lived in the world of the underbelly of crime and violence and took it all in seriously .. my take is before the hernia operation he was all in to give it his all .. when the bout got delayed and the **** hit the fan before the fight Sonny basically said f-ck-it , saw the opportunity and got out of there .. to me that is far more likely than an iron jawed Liston , who took bombs from Cleveland Williams flush early , being KO'ed by an average punching , back peddling Ali and on the floor for close to thirty seconds ..
     
  8. newurban99

    newurban99 New Member Full Member

    39
    37
    Apr 24, 2010
    I like your analysis and summation. Very knowing and logical.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

    22,386
    4,865
    Jul 15, 2008
    Thank you .. the debate is not who is absolutely right as no one has the answer . It is about respecting the other person's opinion without defaulting to obnoxious jabs used (unsuccessfully) to try and diminish credibility.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  10. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,768
    6,206
    Aug 26, 2017
    And here comes the back peddling from you.. The debate isnt whether the fight is fixed or our opinions differ .. , its whether the most Athletic HW in history coming into Prime has the one shot power to KO a 35 year old WAY past prime sluggish, probably a HUGE drinker .. HW Liston ... You choose your words carefully huh? You went from this narrative that Ali was catching lightening in a bottle and that shot dosent have the power to KO Liston .. That is what you said ...And you have no idea what you are talking about ... Because you do not know where the shot landed ...and because you do not think a shot like that if landed in the perfect spot can KO someone ... And you are wrong !! so just admit it instead of presenting the narrative that Ali doesnt have the power to KO like that .. As JT just posted the one shot damage on Folley .. A perfect punch is still a perfect punch , whether you like it or not
     
  11. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,768
    6,206
    Aug 26, 2017
    ^^^^^ This is what you said .. He didnt knock down this guy or that guy with the " same punch " ... or generating enough power ... My question is to you why are you lumping all these punches together as the " same punch" ? What does that mean to you? where did the punch land on Liston? Did it land high on the side of his head? did it land flush on the temple? did it graze his cheek bone? Did it land flush on the chin? Did it land flush on the ear? Is all of this the same punch landing punch to you? Are you also under the impression that landing high on the hip is also the " same punch" as landing flush on the liver?? //// Going down the road that somehow Ali lacked power, and all these punches are the same, or Ali couldn't KO with a single shot just doesn't jive .... The rest I agree with you
     
  12. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,803
    1,117
    Mar 31, 2021
     
    surfinghb likes this.
  13. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,768
    6,206
    Aug 26, 2017
    Im 50 - 50 on it , wouldn't take Chuvalos word for it thats for damn sure . .a tap on the head, haha
    Ive always leaned a bit towards a fix , but like to give Ali is due in case all of the conspiracy theorists are wrong ,,
    And maybe Liston just wanted to save himself from another beating ,, just as plausible I guess
     
  14. newurban99

    newurban99 New Member Full Member

    39
    37
    Apr 24, 2010
    Regarding Liston the enigmatic person, here's what his longtime friend and sparring partner Foneda Cox told me: "Sonny could be the nicest guy in the world and just the opposite." Liston's wife Gerry (Geraldine) said on tape: "He couldn't drink. Every time he got in trouble it was when he was drinking." Philadelphia talk show host Jack McKinney, who knew him well, thought Liston's illiteracy masked a high intelligence. The author James Baldwin wrote perceptively: "He is inarticulate in the way we all are when more has happened to us than we know how to express; and inarticulate in a particularly Negro way -- he has a long tale to tell which no one wants to hear."
     
    roughdiamond and White Bomber like this.
  15. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

    11,062
    8,087
    Mar 19, 2012
    I just watched this 3 days ago. Outstanding video.