The Great .. Sonny Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by surfinghb, Jun 29, 2021.

  1. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    No it didn't. It regressed. One obvious area is pocket defense. Boxers today and since the 70s use their legs more than ever. It makes for great track meets but not fights. Standing in the pocket and slipping has been a lost art.
    Thats why for example when a James Toney comes along they say he was a throwback in the skill department. Many modern fans believe you have to be moving around/retreating to outbox an opponent.
     
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  2. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Sonny was pretty sharp. Not educated but he showed a quick wit.
     
  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The fact the guy's name was "Cox" and he shared this information tells me God has a sense of humor. :lol:

    I actually laughed out loud.
     
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  4. Samtotheg

    Samtotheg Active Member Full Member

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    even better than pocket defense is stepping deep enough after throwing to tie up the opponent and prevent return fire or pivoting of landed shots and preventing return fire. Or instead of trying to slip shots and being to slow you catch their hook or jab preventing return shots and follow up punches with the same hand . The pocket defense of 70s was the less superior defense to boxers of the 30s and prior.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  5. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Thats good insight. I think also the mentality was different. People worked all day came home and made a decision to go to the fights PreTV. They made the effort to go to the smokey arena and watch the fights. They expected a fight. You had to fight. Aggression was respected more than later times. Take chances, give the people a show. Give them the value for that ticket.
     
  6. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liston took a dive
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    you didn't say "top contender" but you did choose your words carefully HG, for sure. That's why i didn't actually quote you.

    Ali's counter right could be dangerous as it was just so fast and usually not seen at any stage.

    I'm in the same boat as you in that i don't believe it was legit albeit with different reasoning. I think it was a fix full stop.
     
  8. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Actually I did write top contender JT . Go to post 174. That said , nice to see a knowledgable guy that can debate opposed to the angry losers that frequent the joint.
     
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  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Not to mention the use of feints and Parry’s only the best we’re skilled in those departments today most don’t use any. Wlad was good at both for example
     
  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Yeah, you saw lots more elite level feints and subtle defence around the time of Ali/Duran and such. I think it's mostly down to having guys like Arcel, Futch, and Clancy around to teach them. I know the old 'the fighters are getting worse coznthe trainers are dying' cliché is a bit of a laughing stock, but it does hold a bit of weight. No-one's fighting like Alexis Arguello today, because there's no-one around to teach them.
     
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sorry HG i only caught the bit from the one post. No problem with any of your points was just showing Ali could conjure up some dangerous punches.

    Your criteria is pretty tight and i'd hazard a guess that even some renowned punchers might struggle to match it. It would actually make a good thread topic.
     
  12. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Another problem with boxing trainers today (you can see it on the board too) is everyone thinks they’re the only ones who know **** about boxing. So what happens is people only learn some of what they should. That’s why guys like Wlad and Lewis who switched trainers in their careers end up being better fighters. You learn more from multiple trainers. Such an oddity in sports where certain styles and methods are completely dismissed because some think they won’t work or it’s not the way they do things (and they’re the best). You don’t see that in other sports. A pitcher will learn every pitch in their career but specialize in a few. It should be the same for boxers. **** poor trainers is to blame.
     
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  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think it was more of a case where Wlad and Lewis found a GREAT trainer. If, say, they had him from the start they certainly wouldn't have lacked from not having multiple guys.

    Don't get me wrong, in many cases guys can absolutely learn from multiple guys. Eddie Mustafa Muhammad had some great trainers around and it showed in his old school moves. He had some mad skills in there.
     
  14. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    First , again, we know anything can happen .. undeniable ... this in question was probability in one circumstance or the other ..

    Here are the heavyweight champs I rate over Ali as punchers :

    Sullivan, Fitz, Jeffries, Burns, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Ingo, Liston, Ellis, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Rachman, McCall, Bruno, Vitali, Wlad, Wilder, Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Coetzee .. I'd favor Johnson .. he's in there with the Fury/Tunney class ... there is no doubt Ali was exceptional. Size, strength, heart, chin, speed, stamina, intelligence .. and still power enough when used in conjunction with his other skills to keep him formidable .. it all just does factor into my personal equation regarding this particular debate .. :)
     
  15. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How about that one right hand that basically ruined Ron Lyle, who I think was ahead at that point?
     
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