The Greatest Pound for Pound fighter of all time?

Yeah, but he only fought in a very small HW division. Most of the guys weren't very big HWwise, so a lower rating p4p is justified in his case - at least I think it is.

 

Rocco, who is that in your avatar?

 

Have you read any books on Marciano?. I have The Ring magazine from a couple of years ago which had half of the magazine dedicated to his career and fights. Something more in-depth could well be on the menu.

 

I might be wrong, but that could be the man himself.

 

Marciano didn't move around in weights, did he? Most of the guys he fought weren't that much different in weight than he was, so a high p4p rating might not be appropriate in his case.

 

Thats what I was thinking, but still asking.:hey

 

Is that you in your avatar Rocco?

 

He's just another guy that loves to beat on drums as much as me

 

Marciano was a small heayweight in terms of weight, and height as well for that matter. 185lbs standing at 5' 10". He fought two natural light-heavyweights as champion, Charles and Moore. Correct, never fought anyone that comes to mind with the physical stature of Foreman or Lewis. However, because he never moved around weights should not work against him. He could only go south, not north. Many heavyweights beyond Marciano's era were small compared to today's standards.

Dempsey wasn't a giant, neither was Louis. The odd 6' 5"/240lb + ish monsters popped up from time to time back then, but they were scarce.

 

I think the p4p thing is better suited for fighters that start out in a lower weight class and move up. Maybe if Rocky KOed some 250 pounders or whatever he could be rated high in this category, but since he didn't have the opportunity, I can't see a high rating for him p4p. I think the same is true of Ali, for the same reason in this category. The guys Ali fought and beat weren't that much different in size than he was.

 

I don't think Jones's accomplishments rank with the Robinson's,Armstrong's or Greb's of the world and I doubt whether any modern fighters will ever match those guys achievements.Hence I don't rank him up there with them.But in terms of ability and dominance you could make a case for ranking him highly,as some people clearly do.What I took exception to was your flippant dismissal of people who do rank him highly as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he belongs there.

I also rank him in the top 10 Lt Heavyweights behind the guys you mentioned but remember they were natural Lt Heavy's,Jones wasn't.He was at a size disadvantage against most of his opponents at Lt Heavy but still won and won impressively.That counts for something in my book.

So what if I defend Jones and don't rank in the top 10 p4p? I still think he was a terrific fighter and I rate him around about number 20 p4p all time,which is still a very high ranking in light of all the great fighters the sport has produced.I think you have him too low at 50 but that's your opinion and I'm sure you could list 49 worthy fighters ahead of him and state strong cases for them and that's fine with me too.

There's been a tendency to down grade Roy's achievements in the twilight of his career and to compare him unfavourably with Bernard Hopkins and I think that is grossly unfair.

Sure Hopkin's has aged better than Roy but Archie Moore aside I'd say he's aged better than almost anyone who's ever fought,and that's including so called technically sound boxers.Why is it held against Jones that he was through at 35? It's not held against Leonard,Hagler,Frazier or Tyson that they weren't as good when they aged so why hold it against Jones.

I'll agree with you that Jones-Hopkins was a boring fight but I won't accept your criticism of Jones for fighting a defensive fight because you reckon he hit harder.Hopkins had a reputation as a puncher back in those days so I don't blame Roy for fighting in a conservative fashion.He was fighting for his first World title was he meant to abandon his normal style and come out like Joe Frazier or something? Get real,he did what he had to do and still landed the heavier and more frequent punches.Hopkin's himself admitted he fought too cautiously as well so I'd say there was fault on both sides and anyway they both got a lot better after this.

Jones's win over Toney doesn't compare with the other fights you mentioned as they were classic fights and this wasn't.It was a shut out but I again don't see how that should be held against Roy.He whipped one of the best fighters in the world with ease.It's not his fault he was too good for Toney even if you believe he was weight drained or not.

Glad to hear you retracted your comments on Schmeling as he was a fine human being and deserved better than that :good

As for Louis without knowing the details I know he suffered years of mental illness exacerbated by drug use and I'd say this assault must have happened when he was mentally diminished due to this.Not that I condone it (or his womanizing) just offering what I think could be a partial explanation as he was meant to be a fine person prior to this.

 

IMO, there is no justifiable way you can rank either duran or pep above ali. Muhammad beat more ranked fighters and his top wins are better, its as simple as that.

 

Mick Fleetwood:huh

 

You make plenty of fair points in this post, there's a few things I disagree with though, or just feel the need to reiterate;
1/ I still feel that people who rate him in the top10 do so based moreso on ignorance than anything else. I mean, most of the people who rate him in the top10 may not even know who Sam Langford is, let alone the extent of his accomplishments. Therefore how can they say, with any sort of conviction, that Jones accomplished more?
As I said, I don't know of any respected experts or historians who rate Jones top10. Don't dismiss the fact that we rate Jones very similarly, I said he may edge inside the top50 you said there's at least twenty fighters higher so there is not too great a discrepancy between our opinions of him considering a fair few people rate him outside of the top100.

2/ I think ageing well certainly does enhance a fighters legacy - Longevity is important, is it not? Fighters like Archie Moore and Ray Robinson were beating topranked contenders and fighting for World titles for thirty years, surely this must help their legacy? Why certain fighters don't age as well is different in every case. Aggressive fighters who have been in a number of wars, as a general rule, age much faster. Frazier, Hank etc. I just feel that Roy relied greatly on his athletic gifts, and once they faded he wasn't the same force he once was.

3/ I think it's debatable whether Hopkins or Jones is the greater fighter P4P, they're at a similar level though in my books.

4/ I wasn't really holding the quality of the fight against Jones, moreso the quality of the opponent. Now I'm not saying Toney sucked, he was obviously one of the best fighters in the World at the time. But I don't think most would rank him in the top100 based on the rest of his career. I think he was destined to accomplish a little more than he did, he will probably rank behind the likes of Mosley, De La Hoya, Barrera, Morales, Mayweather etc in an all-time sense. These are just some of the better fighters of his era.

5/ I would like to have seen a rematch further down the track to be honest. I feel Hopkins developed more as a fighter, and Jones became more relaxed and confident, it may have been a more interesting fight but at the time it was a big let down.

6/ This could open the door to another debate :good How accountable should a man be for his actions factoring in drug abuse, mental deterioration and perhaps even genetic predisposition to violence etc etc. I really can't be arsed to debate the topic! But for the record, Louis' attack was prior to his admission to a mental institute, it seems as though he had not begun to lose his marbles as yet, but I can't comment on what was going on in his mind at the time.

 

Good stuff :good
This is what I enjoy about Classic forum.You can disagree with someone but can debate it until you realise you're coming from similar places without resorting to abuse or name calling.You couldn't have a discussion like this over in General as a difference of opinion is taken as a declaration of war.

I look forward to disagreeing with you further