Just curious, is flash Elorde missing from this group, or do you feel he was not on that level at this weight?
I tend to extend a bit of latitude where the fighters are basically a pound or so over the division's limit; as long the fighter makes the weight in subsequent fights. Guys Armstrong defeated while at or just over the 130 lb limit... * Baby Arizmendi (4th meeting) * Frankie Klick * Mike Belloise * Juan Zurita * Chalky Wright * Benny Bass (Well, Armstrong weighed 130lbs. Bass made 130 or thereabouts in subsequent fights) Plus wins over rated contenders like Baby Casanova, Richie Fontaine, Davey Abad, Tony Chavez, Aldo Spoldi. So, those are wins over the two junior featherweight champions to sandwich Chocolate, several previous featherweight titleholders, and a couple of future champions. Pretty impressive, imo.
Impressive but just add them to his lightweight ledger. For me, he doesn’t rank at all at 130 because he had no fights designated for the limits i set previously. Absolutely fine if you have different criteria for your own rankings. H2H? Sure, Armstrong probably whips everyone.
The fact that Jr. Featherweight had become something of an after thought after Choclate makes it difficult to rate Armstrong, But if I subscribe to the view that Charles is the greatest LH of all time without winning a championship, I can make the same allowance for Armstrong. I feel I personally have to make those allowances given the trajectory of his career. So, the work he got done when campaigning at/near the junior lightweight limit makes it difficult for me to exclude him, even though I understand why others would. Interesing call on Young Corbett II. He does have a rather stacked resume while campaigning at 130lbs. I kind of forgot that he did so and just viewed him as a lightweight in his own right. That may well result in his inclusion in my Top 10.
I'd say Henry Armstrong beats the shitz out of all of them,,,but, I will say that at 130 pounds Camacho was really something even though he was untested. This was before Edwin Rosario gave him the runs.
Exactly. At this weight Floyd was dangerous. He could punch and was lightening fast. Camacho would be the only guy I could think to challenge that claim.
Brian Mitchell also deserves to be in the running, but how he would do against Arguello and Mayweather is questionable.
Just reviewing this thread again as I was thinking about this today. I’m pretty much in agreement with myself from four years ago when I had it Arguello at the top, Mayweather a close second and Azumah third… but I think Chavez is awfully close to Nelson so he would be my number 4 (and I can see an argument for him above Nelson too). Number 5 is a toss up for me between Flash Elorde and Manny Pacquiao - two iconic Filipinos, the first who really defined the modern era of the division and dominated it in the ‘60s and the other who went on a terrific run at the weight between 2006 and 2008. Pac probably has the better resumé but I’d be inclined to put Elorde a touch ahead for dominance and consistency (strictly at 130, though, as Elorde lost at 135 during his title reign more than once, most notably against Carlos Ortiz). Haven’t decided on the rest of my top 10 so it’s just a top 6 for now: 1. Arguello 2. Mayweather 3. Nelson 4. Chavez 5. Elorde 6. Pacquiao
It's interesting you say that about Chavez, as I'd have him quite a bit lower based solely on what he did at 130. I think Castillo & Laporte had seen better days by the time Chavez fought them, and both were significantly smaller. And while Roger and Martinez are decent fighters, they were never 'winners' so to speak. And given how their respective careers we're going at the time, I wouldn't consider those wins all too great either. I suppose that makes it sound like I'm dismissing him entirely, I don't mean to. I would have him in the top ten - of course - but I think it'd be nearer to ten than five. There's something to be said about a guy who just bulldozes everyone, especially when they stick around for a few years first. As for Elorde vs Pacquiao, I think at 130 specifically, I would choose Elorde. He has a much longer run there, and also defeated Saddler. Granted, the rest of Elorde's comp at 130 - off memory - wasn't too great but his run there was much more significant than Pacquiao's. Not to mention, all of Pacquiao's best wins are all against former feathers too, and I wouldn't say the old versions of Morales and Barrera make up the distance between Saddler and Marquez. There's a few other guys I'd sneak into a top ten at super feather, most notably Johnny Dundee; Tod Morgan, Young Corbett II & Kid Chocolate. As a rough draft, I'd say my list probably looks like this: #10. Julio Cesar Chavez #09. Manny Pacquiao #08. Kid Chocolate #07. Tod Mogran #06. Young Corbett II #05. Azumah Nelson #04. Johnny Dundee #03. Flash Elorde #02. Floyd Mayweather Jr #01. Alexis Arguello
Yeah, I don’t think it’s a division where anyone is so outstandingly better or greater that they are a lock for a particular position. I do think Arguello and Mayweather are 1 and 2 but if you look at it from a title reign point of view, it’s not like anyone racked up 12-15 defenses and dominated the division for a long period - Elorde reigned as undisputed champ for 7 years and made 10 defenses but it was the early days of the modern division and his competition was only OK. The status of his reign was really reflected by his desire to win the lightweight title but he just lost to a better fighter (twice) in Carlos Ortiz. Arguello was completely dominant but for under 2 1/2 years. He beat lots of top quality contenders though. Mayweather might have been the best there’s ever been in the weight class but he misses out on the top spot for me due to Arguello’s higher level of opposition. Nelson is definitely top 5 and I have him at 3 - he was one of the few fighters who established a genuine legacy in the division over the 9 years he was champ on and off. He was pretty perfectly suited for the division and beat some tough opposition - Mario Martinez and Jeff Fenech, plus decent contenders who would become titlists like Gabe Ruelas. I see your point about Chavez but he looked pretty good to me against the likes of LaPorte, Castillo and Mayweather. He beat some tough competition and his win over Rocky Lockridge is a bit underrated, I think (and Lockridge is probably underrated too). Manny’s time was pretty brief as well but beating Morales, Barrera and Marquez is impressive work, even if Morales and Barrera were past their best (I think Manny would have likely always beaten Barrera, though). The one defeat to Morales hurts his overall standing a little.
