The Harsh Reality: Heavyweight Is A Turgid, Squalid, Lugubrious, Wretched Cesspit Of A Division.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Apr 1, 2018.



  1. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    Okay, right off the bat, to clear up any misconceptions, I'm not an elitist, I detest snobbery from all fanboys who think that because they watch the lower divisions that they are in some way superior, we're not, its just that we're extra geeky and are willing to go that extra mile to get our Boxing fix. With that out of the way, let's face some facts shall we? The once glitzy sexy glamour division of the sport has now morphed into the sad weather beaten toothless groady old crackhoe bag lady of it. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not some starry eyed rose colored glasses wearing nostalgist that pines away for the good old days either, I'm just a frank, brutal, logical, realist about things. Put a fork in it, its dead as a doornail for the foreseeable future, with no hope of resuscitation, even if my favorite two brilliant Eastern European killers Usyk and Gassiev move up and join its plodding ranks, they can't even save it. Its that bad off.

    Alright, there's a naïve perception afoot that its back!!! And in a big way, well.... that's a fallacy. Its a misperception instilled in fans by scurrilous promoters who know where the money is, so they build up these guys to be monsters among men, because after all, most of them are physically behemoths, they're gigantic, they don't seem like mere mortals, so its an easy morsel to sell to a salivating ever hungry audience, who are in fact longing for the good old days to return, in some cases the good old days they've only heard about in movies, the myths & legends of the sport. Well get over it, it ain't happening. Here's the reality, the whole division is populated with nothing but a bunch of plodding, muscle bound, one dimensional, glass jawed, manufactured assembly line robots. The paucity of talent at Heavyweight at the moment is truly appalling. Its probably one of if not the worst division in the sport.

    So here's my breakdown of the divisions shining lights.

    Anthony Joshua
    Its no secret on here that I'm not the man's biggest fan, but I can also be reasonable and fair in my assessment. Face it guys, all the people who are already longing for the killer AJ from a year ago, get over it, those days are never coming back. He's not a stupid man, he was made abundantly aware of his limitations in the match against Wladimir Klitschko, in fact he's probably ran the series of events that led to his knockdown and near stoppage over and over in his head on a loop for the entirely of the last year. His whole life probably flashed before his eyes in that moment, as if being faced with his own mortality, and in a way, he was. He's a pampered phony media produced money making product, nothing more,, and he knows it, he's an expendable asset, and if he loses that aura of invincibility with a KO loss or two, then the allure is gone, fickle fans will stop caring in this unforgiving sport, and they will move on to The Next Big Thing, Hearn gives him a boot in the ass, and he becomes yet another Audley Harrison or David Price like sacrificial lamb to feed to up and comers.

    So, for the reasons I just listed, the new and improved, and far less entertaining AJ is here to stay, he's terrified of being countered, and he's terrified of gassing and being TKO'd because of what Wlad did to him in the 5th and 6th rounds of their fight, so he's never going to put himself in that position ever again, he knows he has a glass jaw, and a horrid gas tank, and that the only reason he survived is because Vitali like a jackass told Wlad to take his foot off the gas and take his time, allowing AJ to regroup and get his wits about him again, and even that took him about 4 rounds, even if his legion of fanboys will not admit that, he knows that's the score. So from here on out, he's going to conservatively pace himself, take zero risks, throw a minimal number of punches and not sit down on any of his shots out of fear of being countered and dropped, and if that means boring the living crap out of the fans, then so be it, because he keeps his 0, and keeps enough of them coming back to justify those big ass paychecks Eddie keeps handing him every 6 months, is all that matters. So RIP to the exciting dazzling KO artist AJ, long live the new "finesse" loving King of Boredom, finesse is just another name for cautious as all hell, because I love my exorbitant lifestyle, fame and money more than leaving a legacy of iconic performances. That Wlad-AJ match was thrilling, a little too thrilling perhaps, it also was a wake up call, AJ realized he doesn't want to be thrilling and get KTFO, so the hell with everyone, he's playing it safe. He's in fact, a hyper cautious plodding one two.... well, three artist, lets not forget that uppercut, who can't cut off the ring to save his life, isn't great at inside fighting, prefer deadly slow pace who does control range faily well, and that's only due to his opponents fear of his power, which while vastly overrated, he's an accumulation puncher, its enough to keep his opponents from aggressively walking him down. It is what it is.

    Tyson Fury
    Ah, our incredibly versatile skillful genuine talent in the division, who lacks the motivation to get off his fat ****ing ass and to assert himself, he's happy with one brilliant performance and the little bit of cash that came along with it, and would rather milk that for as long as he possibly can, than get his fat coked up pathetic ass in decent shape and attempt to repeat it. Fury has exemplary footwork for a big man, has brilliant lateral movement, his use of feints, jab, combinations, handspeed and reflexes are insane for such a big lumbering oaf. But he seems to prefer running his mouth instead of getting in the ring, and running there, because as skilled as he is, he's terminal box office cancer, because from now on every fight at the top level, Fury will fight exactly like he fought against Wlad, there's too many big puncher's to risk slugging it out with. He knows like AJ, his chin isn't made of titanium, so he prefers to play it safe, and very dull as well, he's the new Money Mayweather of Heavyweight, his bull****ting skills are top shelf and sell the tickets, it makes people want to see him lose, and he puts on a mind numbing borefest of a masterclass, and sends them home frustrated and annoyed that they wasted their money.

    Deontay Wilder
    Okay, clearly I'm a fan of The Bronze Bomber, but I'm under absolutely no illusion or delusions about his clear as the nose on your face limitations, and they're ample. Quite frankly he's as uncoordinated as a baby deer in there, his long spindly legs are partially to blame, but its not limited to that, his punch placement is atrocious, his accuracy is woeful, his opposition aside from Ortiz, has been less than stellar, his footwork is heinous, his jab while decent is limited, he seems to only have a good jab when in against orthodox face first plodders, its basically non-existent against southpaws, and of course, we can't forget the windmills can we? Wilder is a terrible boxer, but..... goddamn, that power!!!! It almost makes up for all of those limitations doesn't it? All he needs is one shot, it is truly the great equalizer with him. Deontay is not even close to the total package, but he possesses many qualities AJ lacks, he has ample heart and true grit, a far better than advertised chin and genuine willpower, and not because some old man let him off the hook. He wants to win, and dammit, he wants to entertain, sure there's some boring stretches in Wilder fights, but which of them have ultimately been truly abhorrent or mundane? The man puts on a show, and tries to entertain the best he can with his brash, obnoxious, and at times classless and crassly infuriating personality. He's the bad guy, he knows his role, and he loves playing it. That being said, he's a horrible boxer, who would lose to a laundry list of all time greats. He's an exciting KO artist, that will lose eventually, but it'll be a quasi fun ride until that happens. But one fun fighter in a sea of dullards doesn't an exciting division make.

    Joseph Parker
    In many ways, he's been a great letdown to me, when he first started out, he was another thrilling bombs away all action fighter, who knew he had a good chin, and exploited it with great effect, he built up a small army of devout fans when taking on so so to decent opposition, smashing their heads in with ease and with a kind of reckless yet somewhat controlled defensively responsible abandon, that entertained the masses, and drew the interest of casuals. But ever since he stepped up in class, the old thrilling action packed matches of Samoan Sledgehammer are nowhere to be seen, its not that his power isn't legit or elite level, its just that he's unwilling to set down on or even commit to his punches, because like AJ, he likes to play it safe, he doesn't fancy the idea of truly putting that iron chin to the test, so he's more than happy to bore the audiences like AJ, with dreadfully dull long boring ass cautious pitty pat counter punch filled UD's, that he does just enough to nick, he doesn't even like going out of his way to put the cherry on top, and make them dominant. He's seems very happy with just being average, which really saddens me, because if he truly believed in himself, and pushed himself, he's capable of so much more, but I'm not sure if deep down, he cares enough. He sadly lacks motivation and seems to be cool with just being okay. If someone can light a fire under his ass and give him the proper inspiration, the old Parker may return, but as of now, he's happy being an Average Joe.
     
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  2. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    Alexander Povetkin
    Sasha The Great, ain't so great without all that meldonium pumping through his veins is he? Povetkin's power is vastly overrated, sure he had a string of impressive KO's throughout his career, but face the facts, most of them are against opponents on the glass jawed side, every time he gets in with good to elite opposition with decent chins like Chambers, Chagaev, Wach, Wlad, he goes the distance, he even manages to go the distance against guys he should have KO'd like Hammer, Rudenko, Firtha and yes, even blown up Cruiserweight Huck (who he last to), but he couldn't even drop most of them. His recent KO ratio was helped immensely because of his PED's, face the facts, while they may not have been illegal at the time, they still enhanced his performance. When your opponent is tired and can barely stand up, and lack the reflexes to block or slip shots and you're still sharp as a combination punching tack, that's a dangerous recipe for a violent KO victory, and that in a nutshell is what happened with Takam and Charr, Perez was just out of shape and is completely average in every way. Sure Sasha has the skills, against smaller HW's, but as proven against Wlad, he struggles with giants with good jabs and a decent reach advantage, which will severely limit his future success in the sport in the proverbial Land Of The Giants. Add to that, his reflexes are starting to fail him, his old pre-PED middling stamina has now not shockingly returned, and he's nearing 40. He was boring to begin with, and the only reason to tune into his fights, has been removed by VADA. From here on out, his failing chin, poor stamina and age will be a massive liability, his days are numbered as an elite.

    Luis Ortiz
    King Kong in my opinion is probably one of if not the most skilled guy at Heavyweight aside from Tyson Fury, yes, some of that skill can be attributed to Ortiz being a southpaw, which gives him an advantage over less skilled fighters, but its a little more complicated than that. His control of range and distance, his footwork, his use of angles, punch placement, and counter punching skills makes him a cut above the rest. He's the real deal, and its a pity that he got tied up with the PED controversies, of his own making and that he's been such an avoided fighter, while old, he's a young old guy, he doesn't have years of wear and tear on him, the match against Wilder was his first genuine war. He can still make some noise, but time's a wasting, he needs to milk the brilliant performance against Wilder for all its worth, because like with Povetkin, the sand in the hourglass is running out regardless, his reflexes and speed will soon start to fade, and his power will be his only asset.

    A cursory glance at the guys bringing up the rear.

    David Haye
    A non factor until he beats Bellew, and if he looks bad doing it, will remain so.

    Dillian Whyte
    Thoroughly average stamina and skill level, if in with a guy with a good chin, can be drawn into a war, his chin isn't great, and his punching power overrated. I like Lucas Browne a lot, but let's be honest here, a half dead Chagaev outboxed him and dropped him, I figured his chin would be sturdy enough to stand up to Whyte's power, but he showed up out of shape the early cut that blinded him, and the fact that he got completely out of position and practically gave Whyte the perfect devastating angle to land the KO shot, it really doesn't mean anything. The fact remains, Helenius went the distance with him, as did Chisora both in the winter of their respective careers. He's a top journeyman, nothing more. That is the real Dillian Whyte, the Browne performance flattered him immensely. He will always lose to the elite.

    Kubrat Pulev
    Immensely skilled, top tier talent, probably one of if not the best jab in the division, also lacks motivation and the heart to be elite. Sure, he can pick up a Euro strap here and there, but his age an lack of punching power, will catch up with him again sooner or later, more than likely the next time he steps up. Plus, he's boring as whale **** to watch.

    Jarrell Miller
    Big Baby is fun to watch and is a hell of an inside fighter, with guys who are willing to stand and trade with him in a dog fight, and that happen to have bad enough stamina, that his plodding pressure fighting style can wear them down and corner them along the ropes. But put him in there with a guy with decent movement, good stamina, a on point jab, and he'll look like a lost puppy dog, he'll be reduced to a HW version of Cletus Seldin, also the punch resistance might not be all that stellar, he got rocked hard by Gerald Washington, which is a cause for concern, Miller isn't ready for prime time, and probably never will be.

    Adam Kownacki
    A fat repulsive gelatinous yet relentless blob. He gets hit clean way too much to be a factor, a vicious KO in the making, and add to that, he's gross and no one wants to see him. A little lateral movement and a good jab, and he's toast. Don't get too attached to him.

    Bryant Jennings
    Will always give the top tier a few problems, until they figure him out, he won't be able to KO them, and his chin will let him down when he starts to gas, its doubtful he can spoil his way to a belt, and add to that, his style isn't fun to watch.

    Hughie Fury
    He's not as talented as his big cousin, not fun to watch either, is high risk low reward for guys with no power, but his lack of power makes fighting a KO artist high risk low reward for him. He's stuck in a bind isn't he? He's basically the HW version of a pain in the ass featherfisted Brit Bantamweight that will always lose to a heavier handed somewhat skilled opponent. Has some of the talent of Tyson, with none of the charisma, a hard dull sell for even the most hardcore.

    Andy Ruiz Jr.
    Quite short for a Heavyweight, and way too chubby to truly be a factor in the division, which is sad, because he's actually more entertaining to watch and far more talented than most of the lardasses I've already mentioned, has incredibly fast hands, is an excellent combination puncher and moves very well. He did well against Parker, so he could beat guys in and around his level.

    Dominic Breazeale
    The will and heart is strong with Dominic, but the chin isn't able to match it. He's been down or hurt in almost all of his recent fights, most of them against just alright opponents, his limitations are fairly obvious to anyone who isn't a AJ fanboy, several violent KO losses await him.

    The Future Prospects (One Big Meh)
    Lawrence Okolie - God awful, horrid unpleasant style, near unwatchable.
    Filip Hrgovic - He's okay but nothing special, not much power, okay skills
    Ivan Dychko - Very talented, but not all that exciting, and is packing glass.
    Joe Joyce - Very talented & underrated, I like him a lot, good workrate, good chin.
    Tony Yoka - Glass jawed fraud, will be KO'd before stepping up.
    Sergey Kuzmin - Unpleasant to look at, overrated chubby grotesque bore.
    Simon Kean - One big who cares, okay skills, but looks glass jawed.
    Nathan Gorman - Fat, sloppy looking physically and in the ring, a KO waiting to happen.
    Oleksandr Teslenko - Tall, heavy hands decent, but nothing special.
    Vlad Sirenko - Cool name, but that's about it.
    Rostislav Plechko - Totally overrated, thoroughly average.
    Ali Eren Demirezen - He's just okay.
    Daniel Dubois - Absolute crap.

    So yay!!!! The future looks bright.:lol:

    The Heavyweight Division hasn't suddenly gotten great again, because boring Wlad has retired, its actually gotten worse, because one bore has been replaced by several bores. Its all a fabricated illusion based on hopes and dreams of a return to the Halcyon days of the money division, but hardcore facts undermine and upend that delusional narrative that's being fed to you by the Boxing media. Its still just as bad as its always been, only with a new cast of characters that are destined to disappoint and disillusion the army of casuals that buy the hype and come along with it.

    So keep the hope alive, and keep on dreaming about those... glory days. Because we're not in a renaissance now or for the foreseeable future. Too bad, so sad, boo hoo.

    And there's a reason for that, because Heavyweight is now the land of gargantuan monstrosities, that lack a great deal of the skill level, speed, agility and talent of the Heavies of yesteryear, its become a carnival sideshow, a freak show, if you truly want the good old days to return, they're already here, and they're existing exactly one division south, its called Cruiserweight, check it out, you might like it, and like the old school Heavies, they're putting on classics year in and year out, that sadly no one is watching.

    Its truly a pity Usyk, Briedis and Gassiev will eventually have to move up, the division north is beneath them.

    Look on the bright side, we'll always have old Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Wlad, Vitali, Ali, Frazier and Foreman fights on Youtube!!!!
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  3. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    Come on, goddammit I didn't write all this for nothing! Discuss.:monoloco:
     
  4. uppercut_to_the_body

    uppercut_to_the_body Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Need a section for the guys moving up. Want to know how you think Usyk / Gassiev / Breidis will do in the heavyweight division. Especially since the winner of Gassiev Usyk has a great chance of being made mandatory, since champions moving up often get placed as #1 contenders (in the WBO at least).
     
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  5. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

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    Glad to see you kept your head and didn't embellish anything.
     
  6. Grinder

    Grinder Dude, don't call me Dude Full Member

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    Mate, you're clearly hurt by the proceedings of today. The buildup and the expectations were immense. I too expected Joseph to go out on his shield rather than lose a decision. In round 11 and 12 I was scratching my head.

    To be honest, I think the business side of boxing has taken the priority. Let's simplify it occam's razor if you will - if JP really wanted to win he would have taken some risks. He must have known by round 10 that he needed a KO. That being assumed, where was the urgency? There was none. This can only be explained two ways, he was scared or he didn't want to win. Now I've seen a Samoan guy get up after being hit with a solid steel chair and reign down hell, which may not mean anything, except that I didn't see fear in JP and I don't think he was scared. That leaves one conclusion, which is that he was there to collect his paycheck knowing that any other course of action would be bad for him in the long run.

    Take that as you will. You're obviously smart enough to make your own conclusions.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I like it.
     
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  8. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    Usyk and Gassiev will fit in just fine, parker, ho's not a huge Heavyweight proved that skillwise he could not only hang with, but arguably do enough to draw with or beat AJ, Usyk is far more agile, quick, has faster hands, and probably similar power. Gassiev is roughly the same size as Povetkin, and his power will probably carry up if not increase, he'll be a force to be reckoned with. Brieidis is a question mark, granted, he's already beaten two HW's fairly easily in Perez and Charr, keep him away from the mammoths and he'll be fine, but will probably lose against the big guys.
     
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  9. Payback87

    Payback87 Active Member Full Member

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    That is too damn funny seriously.But harsh too.

    Will be very hard for anyone below 6`6 to win and also keep his HW title for quite a few fights.
     
  10. Mr Icaman

    Mr Icaman 32-0 WBC Champ, Ring + Lineal HW Champ Full Member

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    Bro that's way too much to read but I have skimmed it.

    Gist of it is you think they are all ****??? No one coming through either..

    Don't really agree fury wilder and an aj have faults but guys here put the rose coloured glasses on when comparing to the past fighters.

    These guys all have the ability to beat anyone with their natural talent alone.
     
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  11. CST80

    CST80 Liminal Space Autochthon Staff Member

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    I basically covered similar ground to your post in my assessments of both AJ and Parker. Glad to see you read it.:D
     
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  12. KO KIDD

    KO KIDD Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree seems to be a big gulf between wilder and Joshua compared to the rest and that's it's so frustrating watching joshuas team showing no interest in the fight they had to be asked about it by the sho crew

    the klitschkos had the same distance in class but they fought plenty of proven guys with track records and were better than wilder and Joshua by far
     
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  13. Potwash

    Potwash The Real Untouchables Full Member

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    Great post...actually got me thinking!
     
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  14. covetousjuice

    covetousjuice Putin did nothing wrong Full Member

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    Joshua:
    Interesting assessment on his actions post-Wlad. Not sure how much I agree with it, but you make good points. Don't really have anything to add.

    Tyson Fury:
    I just don't find his style boring. I love "natural" fighters who make their own styles. I find super orthodox fighters boring as ****. Like AJ. I've been following him on twitter/instagram and he does genuinely seem to be losing all the weight. And I don't necessarily think it's fair to blame him for being out of the ring when he's literally been banned. Now that he's no longer banned, we'll have to see what he does. Taking that time off can't have been good for him, physically or mentally. If he doesn't get it together soon, now that he's unbanned, I'll concede he's done.

    Wilder:
    Another "natural" fighter I love. I believe he's a lot more coordinated and controlled than he seems. I also don't believe his power is just some random gift from god. Wilder has clearly decided to focus solely on KOs, completely abandoning the decision. He's rewriting the book on boxing as far as I'm concerned. Also notable is his incredible killer instinct. I've never seen such a good finisher. When Wlad let AJ off the hook? Wilder would've never done that.

    Parker:
    Disagree. He didn't abandon going toe to toe because he was afraid of getting KTFO. He abandoned it because he sucks at it. His fight with Ruiz proved that to me. Whenever he tried to stand and exchange, he lost. He just doesn't have the abilities.

    Povetkin:
    He's old. He's on the massive decline. Boxers, especially white boxers, don't last once they turn ~39. He'll lose in the next year or so and retire sometime after.

    I don't care about the meldonium. If you weren't paying attention on Saturday, go stare at AJ's biceps when he's near Parker and then complain about the meldonium.

    As for the height thing, yeah, all short boxers are going to lose to a tall boxer with mediocre jabs and movement. It's just how it is.

    Ortiz:
    Agree on pretty much everything. He's incredibly good, but he'll squander his remaining couple years as he did most of the years before the Wilder fight.

    Haye, Pulev, Jennings:
    They're never going to accomplish anything more. No ambition. No hunger. Who cares.

    Whyte, Breazeale, Ruiz, Kownacki:
    Overrated nobodies who will/should never hold a title.

    Miller:
    He'll lose against the top guys soon. Fun enough guy I guess.

    Future prospects:
    I think you're expecting a bit too much. The non-olympic athletes have, obviously, not gone through the olympics and aren't going to blaze through the rankings like it's nothing.

    The olympic athletes are just getting started. Too soon to say anything.

    Overall heavyweight scene:
    Looking at the other devisions, things don't look much better to me.
    Guys like Wilder and Fury who are trying to do new and wild things are keeping the division alive for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  15. MrTombourineMan

    MrTombourineMan Торрейра хорошо. Full Member

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    Guys, guys, guys... :rolleyes: April Fools.

    He's so obviously yanking your leg, CST80 actually thinks HW is not only the greatest division in the sport right now, but also the healthiest it's ever been. He loves Joshua and Wilder with a loin-burning passion and drools insatiably at the prospect of their imminent unification.