The Heavyweight Big Three's ATG Historical Standing

People rarely appreciate history being made until its over. It goes against the grain to appreciate something that much while it’s happening. I don’t know if any of the great HW champs were regarded as highly in their own era as they were by the time it ended. But it really is worth it to try to appreciate great history in the making.

We live in a special era. Right now, there is a really excellent argument that there are 3 top 30 HW ATG’s active and dominating the division. Their career isn’t over by any means, and there is plenty of time and room for one or all of them to plummet. But its much more likely at this point that all three will simply continue to push each other higher still in the ranking.

So, there are basically two points in this thread post:

A. the Current Big three are currently deserving of ATG top 30 status, and

B. They are more likely to improve that status than to fall off.

As far as current ranking, personally, I have Tyson Fury in the early to mid 20’s, AJ right behind him, and Wilder two or three behind him. I’m sure the reaction of some people will be to scoff, but let’s examine where they are, relative to other top 30 ATGs.

First, who is in the top 30, leaving out today’s Big 3? Here is my ranking below, on legacy, not H2H unless as a tie breaker or tie maker if it is extremely close.

1. Louis, 2. Ali, 3. Marciano 4. Lewis. 5 Dempsey 6. Sullivan 7. Johnson 8. Foreman 9. Holmes 10 Tie, Wlad and Vitali 12. Tyson 13 Frazier 14. Tunney 15 Jeffries 16. Schmeling 17 Holyfield 18 Corbett 19. Ezzard Charles 20. Jersey Joe Walcott 21. Sonny Liston 22. Floyd Patterson 23. Riddick Bowe 24. Ken Norton 25 Max Baer 26. Tommy Burns 27. Ingmar Johhansson 28. Jess Willard 29. Chris Byrd 30. Tim Witherspoon.

Now, the exact positioning will vary, but those top 24 are fairly consensus. And the positioning usually only changes by 5-10 among those fighters. Once we start getting past the Bowe’s and Norton’s, we are left with the Johanson’s and Willards, and we start getting harder to get a consensus that they belong, as opposed to other HW’s whom there is an equally tenuous argument about top 30 status.

But let’s examine the resume of Bowe, Liston, Burns, and Johanssen, and compare them to the resume of today’s Big 3.

Bowe’s best performances were beating Holyfield twice, (arguably) losing once to him. After that, he didn’t have another win over a clear, consensus top 10 HW (not including Golata, for obvious reasons), except maybe Hide. Outside of those matches, he beat about 8-12 other top 25ish opposition. He was a lineal champ, but only reigned for under a year with two sub par defenses, then later picked up the WBO belt when it was considered a minor belt.

Meanwhile, Fury’s win over Wlad was about on par with Bowe’s first win over Holyfield. To me, it was better, to others, not as good. But it was certainly in the same range either way. He didn’t get another win over Wlad like Bowe did over Holyfield, but neither did he pick up a loss to him as did Bowe. The extra win Bowe had over Holyfield is by no means cancelled out by the loss, but it is mitigated a bit. Fury’s draw with Wilder is vastly better than anything else Bowe did outside of Holyfield, and should nearly make up any different between their resumes vis a vis Holyfield fights v Wlad fight. Fury’s wins over Chisora were (cumulatively) better than Bowe’s single win over Hide. I only count 3 other top 25ish win’s for Fury, as opposed to let’s say 10 for Bowe. For me, its very close, I’d still give Bowe the edge but if Fury beats Wilder in his next fight Fury goes over Bowe.

Let’s compare Liston’s resume vs the others. Liston beat an ATG in Patterson twice, and did so in very dominant fashion. That said, Patterson was a very weak ATG. He never beat a HW ATG himself, and didn’t have the reign to distinguish him that the K’s or Dempsey did. Liston never successfully defended his title, though he did beat about 5 other top 10 HW’s and a number of other top 25ish hw’s as almost a shadow champion while Pattterson was fighting weak defenses.

Fury’s win over Wlad was about as impressive as Liston’s two wins over Patterson. Wlad is the better win than Patterson, but Liston beat him twice and won more impressively. Let’s give the slight edge to Liston on that. Fury’s draw with Wilder is better than anything else Liston did. But then, Fury only beat one other clear top 10 HW to this point, as opposed to about 4 more for Liston. Liston edges Fury at this point to me. Since AJ has a very comparable resume, he’d edge AJ as well, and go beyond that for Wilder. Very easy to see this changing in two years, though.

Tommy Burns is in the top 12 for most consecutive HW title defenses of all time. That said, they were significantly worst title defenses than even Wilder has had. He was utterly dominated by the best HW of his era, in Johnson. Fury’s win over Wlad is vastly better than any two wins of Burns. His draw against Wilder better than any two other wins for Burns. Burns had the title streak, but overall, Fury has got the better resume and place in history, at least to this point. Solid edge to Fury (and AJ). Wilder had fewer title defenses, but his draw with Fury was better than any single win Burns had. And his overall opposition beyond that was very comparable, and to this point is not marred by the losses Burns had. At the moment, slight edge to Wilder.

Johansson. Best win was over Patterson. He then lost two other fights to Patterson. As established above, Patterson wasn’t nearly at the level of Wlad. He didn’t suffer another defeat, though almost lost to fringe contender Brian London. He had maybe two other wins over consensus top 10 HWs, and a half dozen or so top 20ish wins. Fury and AJ’s resume is presently almost indisputably better than Johansson, with a better top win, a better second best performance, and about as much depth (for Fury) and much more depth (for AJ). I’d rate Wilder slightly higher at this point, as well. When you factor the two losses to Patterson in, Wilder’s draw against Fury is more impressive than Johansson’s outings against Patterson, and his depth of resume is better, with two top 5 wins, and another 7 or 8 top 20ish wins.

Now, since Fury, AJ, and Wilder are still around and fighting, their resumes could get a lot worse. But much more likely, they get better. Their performances against each other will only look better as time goes by and as one champion asserts himself as the best. Now, maybe one tanks and just starts losing regularly to lower level people. Or it could be that none of these champs really asserts themselves as the best of the bunch. But if one starts to look like the Ali or Lewis of his era, then that will just make the rest look even better. Does anyone remember how bad Frazier’s resume was after his loss to Foreman? Nope. All the losses Tyson had? Uh uh. The bad performances and losses to lesser fighters than people like Foreman, Holyfield and Lewis mixed in with their success? Not much of a knock at all.

Let’s look at it a different way. When have HW’s, who have been champs or with champ like regard, been around this long, without taking a loss, and not wound up in the HW top 25? I can’t think of a single example. Bowe had a disappointing career, considering the start to his career, but is still thought of as clearly top 15-25. Fighters are often disparaged during the active phase of their career, especially in the first 2/3rds of it, but their reputation comes around later in a mostly predictable manner.

Right now, the Big Three are clearly in the top 30 HW ATG, just on raw resume. As time goes on, it is likely two or even all three of them will be solidly in the top 20, and the best of the bunch could become a top 5 HW. We’re always slow to recognize greatness as its happening, but all the historical earmarks are there for them.

 

Agree strongly, with two caveats: A. No one will ever equal Ali and Louis on legacy, but AJ would be right up there behind them in the top 5 B. Same basically goes for Wilder and Fury. If one of them beats the other decisively, then beats AJ, and adds a couple more strong defenses to their resume, then retires, they would have a top 5 resume.