The heavyweights really are crap, aren't they?

We’re not getting what we want from Wlad in the right quantities.

He has the credentials and physical tools, but as 'fists of fury' pointed out, it does not directly reflect the real deal. There is too much 'pawing' from Wlad, he seems to worry about his stamina, and not enough of a varied arsenal.

Wlad does have heart and is not a candle waiting to be blown out, but he is fragile of mind when compared to the other 20 that you put in the top ranks; that is where some believe he is starting to belong, so naturally he is compared.

Wlad should be punctuating his position with a good run, but there is always that wiff of self uncertainty in his performances that cause one to hold back for declaring him something quite special. He did well to wax Calvin Brock in a lively fight and then he looked on the verge of ridiculous as he probed the smaller Ibragimov for 12.

The story of Wlad seems sure to follow the trend, that being that he is never going to shine because his fighting make-up is always going to hold him back from being truly revered.

 

Yeah and because he was so exhausted he rocked and nearly knocked Peter out :good

Yeah, a seasoned pro who ever went beyond 8 rounds, this only once and all his other fights where finished before the seventh. Additionally he was fighting every month at the time and was still a prospect on his way up. Stay objective.

Yeah, i think so but onlyfor a short period.

Watch the fight, he set a too fast pace for himself. That was an tactical error of him and his team.

Well his panic attacks are one reasen, false tactics and management errors are others. His stamina now isn´t that bad, it´s surely not Marcianos but it´s above average in today´s division. And when you wath the Peter fight, the second fight with Brewster and his recent fight with Thompson that while his panic attacks are still there, he now knows how to deal with them.

 

SuzieQ,

Please explain to me why Cockel was stopped SIX times before he meet Marciano, and FIVE fighters did it faster than Rocky did in 9 rounds?

Can you tell me why? Or will you simply not address the facts?

After that, I cannot recall the last #1 heavyweight contender who already was stopped 6 times before getting a title shot.

Maybe Cockell won a few fights in a row timeline when the best were on their way out to get into position for a title shot. Good for him, but Cockell was not viewed as a top fighter coming into this match. I know you are a Marciano fan, but the ring records and truth should be things you also consider.

As I said before Cockell performance vs Marciano was not impressive at all. Cockell was a mostly a punching bag in this fight. He did not show any skill on offense or defense, nor did he have much speed or power. Marciano should have dusted Cockell early, but as it was, he did not and landed several foul punches that probably expidited Cocklel's TKO loss.

In fact if they never fought, and I posted a fantasy thread between Marciano and Cockell, it would be laughed at. There is no way you or anyone else would pick Cockel, who was several levels below Charles, Moore, and Walcott to last 9 rounds with Marciano.

 

Cockell was NOT the # 1 rated heavyweight contender, he was # 2.

Because he was not that good, like many of the heavyweights today.

wheres your source? 2ndly neither was tony thompson yet he got a shot vs wladimir klitschko and lasted 11 rounds. Corrie sanders was not considered a top fighter, he was unrated yet got a title shot vs wladimir klitschko.

Tony Musto lasted 9 rounds vs Joe Louis. whats your point? when a fighter is fighting FOR THEIR COUNTRY, sometimes they get extra motivated and will do anything necessary to survive. our don promised british he would return to england with the belt. he could be seen vomitting blood between rounds and yet he refused to quit. he fought like a true gallant englishmen. give the man credit for not giving up.

 

I think your argument about the Cockell fight reflecting on Marciano's punching power is flawed. Cockell was stopped 9 times in 81 fights. Maskaev was stopped 6 times in 40 fights, an even worse ratio. Maskaev does not seem to be durable. Hasim Rahman knocked out Lennox Lewis with one punch and also stopped Corrie Sanders. He would be expected to blow out Maskaev easily, yet Maskaev twice went into the late rounds with Rahman and then stopped Rahman. Go figure.

If the worst performance in your career is a 9th round ko victory in which you win all but one round and pound your opponent into helplessness, you're doing pretty well.

 

And it has to be one of the worst quality #2 heavies of all time. If you want to view #2 ring magazine annual ranked contenders and compare them to Cockell, he's bottom of the barrel for sure. You have to know this.

You have to make up your mind. I seen you post the heavyweight division has talent in it many times here.

If you think Cockel won 10 fights in a row, than Thompson who is mediocre won 27 fights in a row, and had not lost a fight in 8 years! Unlike Cockel ,Thompson was never KO'd or as far as I know down until he fought Wlad. Middles and light heavies stopped Cockell, Suzie Q.

Are you trying to use numbers again? Ok, Cockell was stopped SIX times before meeting Marciano. Musto was only stopped once before meeting Louis, and the stoppage was on cuts. Can you see a huge difference here? In addition, Musto always fought at heavy. Cockell was sopped by lower weight fighters. While I agree Cockell gave it his best and tired to win, he just wasn’t very good.

 

No, this isn't the golden era of heavweights but its not as bad as some here are saying. What is hurting todays division is a collection of problems. 1 The best dont face each other enough 2 Fighters are too inactive 3 There is no one exciting guy to grab the publics attention 4 The American scene is at an all-time low point. There is some talent out there and it looks like there are some promising ones coming up. Lets not forget that critics usually complain about fighters in their own eras and the heavyweights, outside of a few instances, has always been one of the weakest divisions in boxing.

A lot of the talk on this topic has concerned Wlad since he is the best guy out there. Wlad does some things really well -jab, handspeed, power, left hook etc and does some things really bad -panics under pressure, holds too much and not very well, no inside game at all etc. But the fact is he is racking up win after win over ranked guys. Fighters from all eras in all divisions get credit for doing so and Wlad should to.

Bottom line on Wlad is that he is the best today and unfortunately he is also becoming one of the most boring.

 

Part of the reason he was stopped so often is that he started fighting professionally at 17 and was stopped four times, at least a couple on cuts, before his 22nd birthday. He also fought heavies while still a lightheavy.
But what exactly does your argument prove. Zora Folley was stopped five times before he fought Ali. This hardly means Folley was an inferior contender. He was a ranked contender for over a decade, reached the #1 contender position twice several years apart. He fought almost all the top men and beat quite a few of them. On the other hand, Roy Harris and Tom McNeeley were undefeated and of course had never been stopped.
Folley nevertheless was a far more worthy contender than McNeeley or Harris. I think he rates in the top 20% of all challengers for the heavyweight championship, and possibly in the top 10%.

You focus utterly on the negatives with Cockell. His record was actually 66-11-1. I might ask, how many challengers for the heavyweight championship have posted 66 victories going into the title fight? How many hold victories over ten men who were rated at one time or another in the Ring Magazine yearly ratings?

 

"Cockell was stopped by lower weight fighters."

Harry Greb was stopped by a welterweight and a middleweight, but never by a bigger man.

Four of the five knockout defeats suffered by Mickey Walker were to men in the lower weight classes. Only Schmeling of the heavyweights he fought stopped him.

Lloyd Marshall stopped Charles. Joe Louis, Joe Baksi, Elmer Ray, Rex Layne, Nino Valdes, etc, etc, etc, did not.

Roy Jones, Jr., has been stopped at lightheavy. John Ruiz did not stop him.

Vitali Klitschko did not stop Chris Byrd. A lightheavy did.

Fighters who compete in the lower weights get knocked out in the lower weights.

 

OLD FOGEY,

Since you brought up Harris, and Folley, I think they were better than Cockell. McNeely, not likely, but that is beside the point.

My main points are this.

1 ) Cockell would not be a top ten ranked heavyweight today. He does not look good at all on film, would be small, did not have a big punch, would not out box most, etc.. In fact I think some good light heavies and cruisers could beat him. Maybe even 1-2 super middles and middles which of coruse these days weight about 175 on fight night, which was pretty close to Cockell’s best weight.

2 ) I think Cockell is one of the weakest #2 annual ring magazine ranked fighters at heavyweight since the ring gave out annual ratings.

If you want to debate points 1 & 2, I’m up for that.

Cockell might have 66 wins, but wins vs whom and when? And he was beaten many times by some mediocre fighters. That has to count as well. If wins mean anything, Butterbean has 77 wins. Of coruse, I am being sarcastic by brining up Butterbean, but I hope my point is made.

 

1. Butterbean--I think your point is not made and is a bit offensive to Cockell. Cockell defeated many of the best fighters in Britain and Europe, and some of the most highly rated fighters in the world. He won the European lightheavyweight title by defeating Albert Yvel, who was ranked in the top ten in the world. He won the British Empire heavyweight title by beating Johnny Williams, who was ranked in the top ten in the world. Harry Matthews had been ranked only a couple of years earlier as the #1 lightheavyweight contender. Roland LaStarza less than a year earlier had been ranked the #1 heavyweight contender. Both were still in the top ten when Cockell defeated them. It is not obvious that Matthews was totally washed up as he fought to 1956 without losing to anyone else. His only postwar loss other than those to Cockell was to Marciano.
Comparing Cockell to Butterbean only proves to me that your judgement is shaky, at best.

2. Cockell lost to a good middleweight in his own day. He lost to some top lightheavies. He also won some, though. How did he look against Johnny Williams? Have you seen this fight? How did he look knocking out Nick Barone in six? Have you seen this fight? How did he look knocking out Lloyd Marshall in one? Have you seen this fight? How did he look against Matthews? Have you seen those fights? In fairness, a man should be judged on some of his good performances as well as on his failures. He didn't defeat Marciano. Neither did anyone else. And Marciano's awkward, swarming, style could make a fighter look worse than he was.

3. I would agree that Cockell is one of the weaker fighters to ever become #2 in the Ring's rankings, but he is no where near the weakest to fight for the championship. Of fighters from the fifties, he is obviously better than Beshore and Barone, whom he defeated, and probably Oma. He actually defeated LaStarza, after all, and I think was better than Rademacher and London, and no worse than even money against Harris. I would favor him over Harris, myself.

 

1. You avoided any real comment on Folley, who was ranked #1 when he fought Ali and who had been stopped five times. Folley was a worthy contender despite his knockout losses because he had a lot of positive accomplishments.

2. Cockell is not in Folley's class, of course, but he was ranked among the top ten lightheavyweights two different years, and among the top ten heavyweights in two different years. Cockell was a middle-row contender, not a washout, as you imply.

3. Who knows what Cockell does today? In fairness, you would have to have Cockell born in 1979 with all the advantages--antibiotics, better nutrition, supplements, etc,--of the modern world to judge. I grew up on a farm in my youth. I know that the farm animals grow a lot bigger than their wild cousins, but also that they would not do so if forced to live under the same circumstances.

 

Great posts Old Fogey. Don Cockell also cleanly defeated Johnny Arthur, a talented superheavyweight, the type mendoza loves.

 

I some of OLD FOGEY's points, and he agrees with some of mine, but calling Johnny Arthur a talented superheavyweight is something you might want to edit out.

 

have u ever seen johnny arthur fight? he could punch.


Also I am pretty sure old fogey did not agree with any of your posts, he knows you have an agenda against 1950s heavyweights.