The influence of the colour line?

africa, china and india have the greatest masses of poor (economically sense) people, i think? I am not sure they are overly represented in boxing.

 

Boxing isnt popular in India and China. Only some parts of Africa have produced boxers mainly Ghana. I dont know the exact population figures for Ghana

 

you may have something there roberto. thank you.

 

Always love reading your posts cool hand kevin always very educational

I do had to say though..how come posters love turning these threads into philosophical and history lessons ...why can’t it ever be a simple black and white boxing related answer? Don’t get my wrong, I love all the smart educated minds we have here. I definitely learn a lot.

Were promoters that smart they were able to manipulate the public into believing black men didn’t get title opportunities because of the “times” and it was out of their control so they wouldn’t get blamed?

 

promoters surely benefited from the split title in the same way the different split bodies benefit now from split titles.

 

Interesting

“Windows of opportunity “

But some of those windows led to close doors. For instance, a black man being promised a title shot if he won an eliminator, than after he won the promoter gives him the song and dance and makes him fight another eliminator.. just so many obstacles for black men pre 1955 which is why I can count on one hand the number of title shots black men got at heavyweight pre 1955 compared to the overwhelming number of white men who received shots

 

"Were promoters that smart" etc.

In a word, yes.

At least I believe so.

"simple black and white"

But many of the criticisms for using the color line in recent and not so recent threads are actually aimed at black champions such as Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson. This is a bit more complex than just black and white. By the way, I think this point of view is unfair and not well under-girded by historical evidence in the cases of Louis and Robinson. But Jack Johnson is vulnerable on this point for his reign as champion.

 

They are represented on the amateur level. When you consider how poor India, Africa, and China are, boxing is there to provide a way out.

For example, China has 471 active boxers at box rec. But who really stands out? The most famous is likely Shiming Zou ( 9-2 ) a gold medal winner in the Olympics, but he's a flyweight with no power. He did win and defend a WBO world title belt but was stopped in his last fight. At age 37 he's likely finished.

India just isn't very good at any sport in general. In the history of the Olympics, they have one individual gold medal and it was for shooting. They have 96 active pro boxers.

If a star boxing talent emerged from India or China, I'm sure the promoters would love to have him, given the population of the two nations.

Africa as a continent has 1742 active boxers. South Africa has 6 of the top ten rated people and two successful ones in Tete ( Bantam ), and Budler ( Strawweight ) who won world titles with multiple defenses.

To close, it's not the quantity here, its the quality.

 

to be fair, we are being somewhat racially judgemental, trying to enforce our western ideas of sport on entirely culturally different subcontinents and regions. They all have their own sports, we just arent any good at THEIR sports so we dont shout about it.

its too easy toforget just how big and diverse the world is, seeing it through one lens makes us blind to the whole thing.

 

I find 1955 a very odd year to use concerning the color line.

The color line fell in the mid-thirties and all the divisions from heavy to feather had black champions between 1935 and 1955, and some divisions for most of the time.

heavy--Louis, Charles, Walcott
lt heavy--Lewis, Moore
middle--Robinson, Turpin
welter--Armstrong, Robinson, Bratton, Gavilan, Saxon
light--Armstrong, Jack, Montgomery, Williams, Carter, Smith
feather--Wright, Saddler

I see a lot of this as ignoring the titles being frozen during WWII, and going overboard about fighters not getting title shots who lost key fights at the wrong time or were never the leading contenders.

 

There were two key differences.

One, boxing never had a central controlling authority. Any promoter could breach the color line if he wanted to. Major league baseball, the NFL, and the NBA and their commissioners could totally enforce a color line.

Two, boxing was a world sport and so there were options in other countries, such as France.

 

Louis had only 3 title defenses out of 25 against black men. It wasn’t a depleted era for talented black men

Before Louis, it’s even worse. Only 2 men who were black received world title shots at heavyweight


Chalking up every top black fighter not getting a title shot because of WW II seems lazy.

Plenty of white heavyweights got title shots coming off losses or not even a top 10 rating. Why is it the only way for black men to get a title shot during that period was to win 2-3 title eliminators and have a spotless record?

“Lost key fights at the wrong time”

Conveniently obstacles were always placed around these black heavyweights where they either had to defeat nearly everyone in the top 10 or win 2-3 title eliminators to get a title shot...and if they slipped up once , promoters would use that as an excuse why they didn’t get the shot. What was done to Harry Wills was a travesty.

“Never leading contender”

First off,

The ring magazine was run by racist white men in New York. It took a lot for them to place a black man at number 1. For instance, Bivins number 1 in 43-44 leaves for war comes back in 45 no longer is rated number 1 despite not losing. Conn leaves for war comes back 4 years later gets reinstated at 1.

Secondly, I can count numerous times in heavyweight history pre 1952 where white men received title shots who were unrated or Barely top 10 ranked

There’s evidence black vs black heavyweight title fights drew very well in the 40s

 

Actually the invention of martial arts as we know it is a eastern Asian type of thing. Moving to boxing isn't a major leap. But your right, its a relatively new professional sport for these nations. I just don't see a explosion of talent here.

Ukraine for example is new to pro boxing. The nation has a population of 42.6 million, yet they have pro stars like Lomachenko, and Usyk with a bunch of talented up and comers. When I see a guy on that level from India or China, then it will be a different story.

I disagree a bit, the USA is at least good at almost all sports.

 

I can name a few instances where a black heavyweight earned a number 1 rating and didn’t receive a title shot pre 1955...

Has there ever been an instance pre 1955 where a white fighter managed a number 1 rating and never got that title shot?

 

let me know how many elite indian stick fighters there are in the USA.


yeh, quite. its a frekin big world.