The influence of the colour line?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 17, 2018.



  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Well maybe you partly agree with me, as I think Ray deserved a shot. I also agree only giving two black men, Walcott and John Henry Lewis ( with bad eyesight ) a title shot when he had 26 of them in total doesn't seem fair.

    Yes, Bivins, Ray, Toles, Franklin, Murray, Blunt, Trammell, Thompson, and Bobo in many cases were better and more dangerous than some o the white guys Louis gave title shots to.

    As we saw the live gate between two black fighters was not the issue! They drew well. It was a use of the color line, not directly ducking a #1 or #2 contender as Dempsey and Johnson did as Champion, rather skipping over the rest.

    In terms of fighting the best out there, Louis > Dempsey
     
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  2. HerolGee

    HerolGee VIP Member banned Full Member

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    the difference i do see is that you think the Olympics has some universal recognition everywhere, when you must know its a competition with western roots in sorts widely accepted in the west, the very fact that asian sports sometimes arent in it dictates this...but you seem to have drawn the OPPOSITE conclusion from this.

    . You shouldnt assume that your view is the view of entire national populations. Once you get past that, you are on a winner.
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    The Olympics is one of the biggest sporting events ever. More than 11,000 athletes from 206 nations participated in the 2016 summer games. Its the closest thing to universal recognition in sports. To compare this to stick fighting is a tremendously bad analogy. China and Japan, two Asian nation win their share in the Olympics.

    India does very poorly here in the events they play. Like I said just one individual gold metal, and it was in shooting. With poverty and crime problems, boxing is a way out for those who can do it well.

    [url]https://www.mapsofworld.com/sports/olympics/trivia/number-of-participants.html[/url]
     
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Yes I agree with you here.

    A lot of unrated or lower rated white men got title shots while many top tier black men never got title shots
     
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  5. HerolGee

    HerolGee VIP Member banned Full Member

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    the sooner you learn its a big world the better 4 u, mendy














    is one of the biggest sporting events ever. More than 11,000 athletes from 206 nations participated in the 2016 summer games. Its the closest thing to universal recognition in sports. To compare this to stick fighting is a tremendously bad analogy. China and Japan, two Asian nation win their share in the Olympics.

    India does very poorly here in the events they play. Like I said just one individual gold metal, and it was in shooting. With poverty and crime problems, boxing is a way out for those who can do it well.

    [url]https://www.mapsofworld.com/sports/olympics/trivia/number-of-participants.html[/url][/QUOTE]
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I know of cases of people being barred from amateur events for competing in events with no prize money, just because they allow professionals. People often get around these rules by using fake names to compete.

    It's all really stupid and dumb because a lot of "amateurs" ended getting more money and being more professional than the "professionals"
     
  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    The colorline was deplorable, and no doubt held back many desiring boxers. But It's one part of a web of complex socioeconomic and cultural factors that create the environment which probably makes the boxers more than raw genetic talent.

    It's possible that the greatest boxing talent ever died in childhood in a slum.
     
  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    But how many of them are exposed to boxing, trainers, gyms etc. ?

    I bet if a few people set up gyms in African regions with a decent talent pool it wouldn't be hard to get tons of top African boxers like they've done in Kenya and Ethiopia with marathons. And I'll go a step further, you'd only need fairly basic equipment to do it, and the trainers themselves wouldn't need to be anything that special.
     
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  9. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Sullivan to Louis eras was a disgrace. Oddly Louis in twelve years as champ fought two black challengers. The often claimed there was no one is wrong.
     
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  10. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Perspective.

    From 1916 to 1936 there were only 18 heavyweight title fights.

    With Joe Louis from 1937 to 1941 there were 19 title defenses.

    From 1937 to 1939 the only black heavyweight rated at all was Roscoe Toles, who had been KO'd by Louis back in 1935. His best rating during these years was at #8. Were there white heavyweights who did not challenge for the title rated as high or higher? Yes. Jimmy Adamick, Maxie Rosenbloom, Len Harvey, and Gunnar Barlund.

    In 1940 Buddy Walker got to #5, but immediately lost to Tony Shucco, Gus Dorazio, and Red Burman.

    Lem Franklin does make a big run in 1941 while Louis is defending against #1 contenders Billy Conn and Lou Nova. He rises to #2 at the end of 1941, but is quickly KO'd by Bob Pastor, Joe Muscato, and Lee Savold.

    Then the war intervenes. After the war Louis is not as active, but fights 4 defenses against men rated #1 when he fought them, Conn, Mauriello, and Walcott twice. Elmer Ray at this point became an outstanding contender, but his big win over Walcott came after Louis' defense against Mauriello. I think Ray should have gotten a shot, but in fairness only after Walcott got his shot. Walcott had done more.

    Overall, more white fighters than black fighters were rated in the top five while Louis was actively defending his title from 1937-1941 and 1946 to 1948, but who didn't get a title shot.

    The anti-Louis bit just doesn't wash with me. It really amounts to a great extent to turning the fact that he defended his title so often against him by therefore comparing fair black contenders with his worst white challengers, and also of course completely ignoring the timeline. Plus of course ignoring WWII.
     
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  11. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "I can count numerous times in heavyweight history pre 1952 where white men received title shots who were unrated or barely top 10 ranked."

    Why stop at 1952? Pete Rademacher? Tom McNeeley? Dave Zylgewicz? Terry Daniels? Jean Pierre Coopmen? Scott Frank?

    I am certain this doesn't exhaust the list. Why only dump on Louis for this?

    "There's evidence black vs black heavyweight title fights drew very well in the 40's."

    Yes, I was the one who brought up that point and presented the evidence.
     
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Albert Santiago Lovell was 4th in 1937. Jack Trammell was 4th in 1936. Eddie Blunt defeated 3 men whom Louis defended his title against.

    So essentially you're saying in the late 30s, the division was scarce for good black contenders?

    Why leave off Jimmy Bivins? Entering 1946 he was on a 35-0 run. He was handed the duration HW champion by Louis himself in 1943, and went undefeated 1943-1945 with two number 1 ratings...entering 1946 the NBA had him number 2 in he world behind Conn. IN my opinion, his work 1943-1945 should have automatically earned him a direct title shot at Louis ...especially since Louis himself recognized Bivins as the duration champ


    What about barely rated or unrated white contenders who got title shots vs Louis like Harry Thomas, Red Birman, Johnny Paycheck, Al McCoy, Tony Musto, Jack Roper...
    why were Louis soft defenses only against white men?
     
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  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Babe Ruth" "I'm more impressed with Ted Williams"

    Actually, name the left-handed pitcher Williams faced who was better than Lefty Grove. Name the right-handed pitcher who was better than Walter Johnson. Baseball is different and trashing Ruth, or Gehrig, for not facing black pitching when they had no control over the situation is different and both unfair and inaccurate, I think. I doubt Williams faced all that many elite black pitchers. (Not that he wouldn't have done well against them) Plus, Ruth and Gehrig did play exhibitions against black opponents during the off-season.
     
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Good point about Ruth and Gehrig not having any control. No doubt they would have liked to play against black ballplayers, unlike Dempsey against black heavyweights.


    Mantle in the 60s played against bob Gibson didn't he? He's one of he best

    Williams had to compete for batting titles against elite black ball players.

    Did Ruth have to compete for home run crowns against josh Gibson?

    Did Ruth have to play at night, or travel on long road trips?
     
  15. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Did Ruth have to play at night"

    Fair enough.

    "or travel on long road trips?"

    yes, Ruth did. He had to travel on trains the same as Williams from Boston and New York west to Chicago and St. Louis. I don't see this point at all.

    "Did Ruth have to compete for home run crowns against Josh Gibson?"

    Ruth was born in early 1895. Gibson in December, 1911. They were not exact contemporaries. Ruth won his last home run title in 1931 when Gibson was still 19. I don't see Gibson making any difference to how many home run titles Ruth won. Gibson would have been competing with Jimmy Foxx and Gehrig and perhaps Williams and DiMaggio more than Ruth. The question of how many home runs Gibson would have hit compared to Ruth, Foxx, Williams, or Gehrig is valid and interesting though.

    Just on Ruth, there are websites which deal with the old major league ballparks, and in fairness the parks in Ruth's day had generally more distant fences than in later days, even those of Williams. I think Yankee Stadium originally had a 500 plus foot distance to center field. That wasn't all that unusual. Fences were brought in some to add more seats over the years.