"Why leave off Jimmy Bivins" He peaked during WWII and started losing fights in 1946. Why exactly should he have gotten a shot over Walcott or Murray, both of whom beat him in 1946? Melio Bettina has the same claim, except he didn't lose until 1947. "Harry Thomas, Red Burman, Johnny Paycheck, Al McCoy, Tony Musto, Jack Roper" Burman in fairness was rated #3. Don't know if he belongs. But what do the others prove? Louis would still be a mile above previous champions in defending his title if he didn't fight any of them. Your argument is boiling down to why not mediocre black challengers if mediocre white challengers get a shot. But that is hardly equal to ducking the best. "Alberto Lovell" Yes, he was a partially black Argentinian. He was rated #4 at the end of the year when Louis won the title, but lost to Gunnar Barlund, drew with Andre Langlet, and then went back to Argentina and fell off the American radar. His record in Argentina seems to show he was not quite as good as Roscoe Toles and Arturo Godoy. Seriously, is Lovell a big issue for you concerning Louis? Or are you going the Mendoza nitpicking route? It is not hard to explain why some of these white guys got shots. They were local attractions in second-tier cities which hadn't gotten heavyweight championship fights. Jack Roper in LA, for example. He was a working actor as well as a boxer, and I think has something like 60 movie credits. His fight with Louis managed to sell out Wrigley Field in LA. LA hadn't had a heavyweight championship fight and Louis gave them one, and boy was it a mistake as it opened the floodgates for criticism about not fighting better fighters who came along years later.
It's a boatload more than that .. the deck was sacked on every level and the black fighters had three times the challenges .. the playing field was ridiculously unlevel.
No I’m not nitpicking with Lovell. Just mentioning. Louis obviously did not duck him. “Bivins” What he accomplished heading into 1946 arguably should have given him an outright title shot. He lost to Murray after he had already beaten him 3 times. He had beaten mauriello twice. He had beaten lesnevich who had beaten mauriello. He had beaten Pastor and Bettina. How does 1-2 losses set Bivins back so quickly? Mauriello lost to oma and Baksi. It didn’t cost him his ranking. From 43-45 Bivins was dominant 1. Never lost 2. Rated number 1 multiple years 3. Defeated nearly all top 10 4. Was official recognied duration heavyweight Champion by Louis himself Honestly Louis should have signed to fight Bivins in early 46 when he returned. Was it fair for conn to take 4 years off and immediately reclaim the number 1 spot at the end of 1945 over Bivins who went 35-0 from 43-45??? Regardless of how well conn drew and how great he was in 1941? Bivins achieved so much 42-45 he should have walked into a title shot in 46 Here’s the big question why wasn’t Bivins Number 1 rated at the end of 1945? I think HE has a point “ .. the deck was sacked on every level and the black fighters had three times the challenges .. the playing field was ridiculously unlevel.”
“Second date white contenders drawing” Yes but both you and Mendoza proved black contenders drew well vs black heavyweight champions Burman was Number 3 in the world? Wow...I’ll have to take a second look at his record
Good points... Mantle and Williams played against black hitters and black pitchers. Ruth did not. So you would agree Mantle and Williams competed against a higher and better playing field?
"It's a boatload more than that" During the Joe Louis era? I am not defending Sullvan or Dempsey. I am not talking about anyone who came before 1937. The rest is true, but why dump on Louis for this. And giving second-rate white contenders shots over more qualified black contenders continued for decades. What about Dave Zylewicz and Terry Daniels over Mac Foster? Pete Rademacher over Eddie Machen? etc.
Well, whom did Williams beat out for a batting title who was a better average hitter than Ty Cobb? Whom did Williams face who was a better left-handed pitcher than Lefty Grove? Whom did Williams face who was a better right-handed pitcher than Walter Johnson? Still waiting for a serious answer. Don't forget that there were also fewer teams prior to 1961 so you were facing the best pitchers more often. This is an issue which can be raised against Mantle. Baseball is a different issue from boxing.
How do we know lefty grove was better than the negro leagues best pitcher? How do we know Walter Johnson was better than the negro leagues best pitcher? Williams and Mantle faced Sandy Koufax, a much better lefty than anyone Ruth faced. Mantle faced bob Gibson, a better right hander than Walter Johnson I can’t see how you can claim Ruth played against tougher competition when the negro leagues best players weren’t allowed to compete against Ruth. MLB back in Ruth’s day was white only
"How do we know Lefty Grove or Walter Johnson was better than the Negro leagues' best pitcher?" We don't, but that is beside the point of whether they were better than the pitchers Williams faced. When did Williams face Koufax? He was a National League pitcher. And why assume Koufax was better than Grove whom Ruth faced many times. And Gibson was a National League pitcher also, so I don't think Williams ever faced him in an official game. And you have to use a sliding scale on stats to prove Gibson was better than Johnson in any case. Mantle faced Koufax two games total, and Gibson three games total. In the World Series only. There was no inter-league play back then. Only the all-star game and the World Series had the players from the two leagues competing with each other. *It is conceivable that in the 1920's and 1930's when baseball was the most popular sport that if the Negro league players were in the major leagues with only 16 teams total that the level of baseball talent might have been much higher than it is today with 30 teams and baseball competing with pro football and pro basketball for talent.
Burman was rated #7 in 1938, and #7 in 1939, and #3 in 1940. That is higher than any black contender during those years. He was on a 20-1-1 run in which his only loss was to Tommy Farr whom he had also defeated. He had beaten Eddie Blunt and would later beat Buddy Walker. Why exactly was Burman a poor defense in a year in which Louis made 7 defenses?
