the jones jr debate.

finally some reasonable criticism. this is the problem when you rank jones historically. it's obvious he was great (for sane people) but he really had no mega fights to point to. he beat some good fighters but overall his biggest fight literally and figuratively was vs ruiz. ruiz was not a great fighter but it was the only fight jones had that caught the mainstream sports media's attention here in the states.

btw, if jones would have beat dariusz in his light heavy reign, he would have received no credit for the most part. just like with ruiz. he really had no competition at his peak.

 

:good

 

He left 168, because there was nothing to accomplish without beating Benn and Liles.

Those fights were hard to make.

Do some research.

Now go and look at the 168 division after Roy had left, and Benn and Collins had retired, and Liles had moved up etc.

From 97 onwards, LHW was the superior division.

In the late 90's/early 00's, SMW was regarded as one of the WEAKEST divisions across all 17 weight classes.

 

Correct.

Would wins over Collins, Benn and Dariusz M etc, have moved him any higher than where he's at now?

I honestly don't think they would have.

Benn was finished after Gerald.

Collins was a WBO belt holder who's claim to fame was beating faded versions of Benn and Eubank.

Nunn was past his best losing to Roch etc.

Let's be realistic, if Roy had beaten all of those guys, how much credit would he have got?

He doesn't get much credit for Ruiz, so he was never going to get huge credit for beating Dariusz M and Collins etc.

 

You are comparing Roy as a kid, to Roy as a full grown man?atsch

As that is proof that he was roiding? You do realize men can still grow and get much stronger through their 20s right?

Just stop.

Edit Bulldog/Atberry it was one of your different profiles that told me without roids Roy would have campained at WW but only would have been a contender.:rofl

 

I can't see it.

If he doesn't get a lot of credit for dominating a top 5 HW at 34, how much credit would a win over Dariusz have brought?

I'm not disputing it wouldn't have strengthened his resume. But by how much?

It wouldn't have been on the scale of Ray Leonard beating a prime Tommy Hearns.

How many places would Roy have moved up in the ATG rankings?

You could bet your life that he'd have got no credit for beating Steve Collins and a past his best Michael Nunn.

 

:rofl:rofl

Ruiz was an absolute joke and everyone knows that. Quit making it out like Roy actually did the right thing and fought Lennox Lewis who was THE Heavyweight Champion. John Ruiz was horrendous. Absolutely awful. People that know Boxing know that. People that don't know Boxing act like he was good and was not just a one time handpicked fight because he was so lacking in skill atsch

 

The right thing and fought Lennox? Do you realize the size difference? Lennox is possibly the greatest H2H fighter ever at HW, and was a giant and highly skilled.

And It wasn't such a sure fact Roy was going to be able to beat Ruiz, plenty picked Ruiz to be too big for Roy, and had questions if Roy could carry his power to HW enough to keep Ruiz honest. Also, we have to take into account how Ruiz was beaten... Roy smoked him, other than Tua no one had dominated Ruiz like that, and he fought some good HWS.

The crazy thing was, people were actually giving Roy a chance vs. Lennox after the performance vs. Vitali.. It goes to show how highly Roy was thought of before dropping back down in weight and looking human for the first time.

 

You are an absolute joke.

It doesn't matter that he never faced Lennox.

He was still a 34 year old LHW, who'd fought 50 times, who'd started out below 160.

Ruiz was still a top 5 HW, who outweighed Roy by a considerable amount.

Roy dominated him, and it was still a great win.

The thing with you, is that you don't allow for circumstances.

Your top wins are all based on the eye test. If you think a particular fight wasn't exciting, or it was boring, then you don't rate it at all. We all know that from your post history. You don't take into consideration a number of things, such as:

How good was said opponent? What had they achieved just prior to the fight? What did they go on to achieve afterwards? Where were they in their career? Were there any notable things to consider, such as a difference in the number of fights, or a difference in weight and age etc?

We know that Ruiz will never be classed as great, and we also know that beating Ruiz wasn't the same as what Spinks did, and it was nowhere near the same as beating someone like Lennox. We know all of that.

But Roy still deserves credit for his dominance over Ruiz.

Anybody that doesn't agree, is a hater pure and simple.

The same guys on here that don't give Roy credit for the Ruiz win, are the same guys that praise Toney for beating Jirov.

The only notable difference, is that Toney's fight was a great, exciting fight.


Now if you look objectively, Joe Calzaghe does not have a better win on his resume than Roy does.

The Lacy win was a great eye catching performance, but it will never be better than Roy's wins over Toney, Griffin, Ruiz or Tarver, all things considered.

Neither will his win over Kessler.

 

:good

 

It is called 'Heavyweight' for a reason. You are not always going to be the bigger guy unless your name is Nico Valuev. Mike Tyson was not the biggest guy, neither was Chris Byrd or even Jack Dempsey for that matter. Why do you keep bringing up size in a Heavyweight fight for christ sakes :roflatsch Do you know how idiotic that is? If Jones wanted to really make History he would have fought THE champion like Fitzsimmons and Spinks did. Spinks didn't try and fight Trevor Berbick and claim he was a 'champion'. He went and fought THE champion that he was smaller than.

And no Roy didn't 'smoke' him it was a sparring session type fight with Jones having little to no output in several rounds of the fight where he either threw or landed in the SINGLE digits of punches. That isn't 'smoking' someone especially when the guy he fought his ONLY tactic was taken away from him for that one fight mysteriously by the referee:huh

 

No nuthugger you are the joke. DM was THE Light Heavyweight Champion and you are saying Roy would not have got credit for fighting him and winning? :roflatsch Are you serious?

Roy was simply not going to take that risk just like he wasn't going to take the risk in fighting all the other guys he side stepped and 'talked' to (your words) and the fights never got made. That list is a mile long and you blame the opponent for EVERY SINGLE one of them :rofl

Sorry I am no fool and neither is anyone on here that would believe any of your nuthugging opinions. It isn't possible for that many opponents to be at fault for a fight not happening with a guy that has a Glass Jaw and no Plan B in a fight and clearly wasn't going to risk that Chin against anyone that could punch.

 

And sorry but Calzage's wins over Lacy and Kessler **** all over Jones wins over Griffin and Ruiz Hell Jones fouled out of the first Griffin fight because he was going through some adversity and didn't know what to do.

 

Holmes was not as massive as Lennox, the size difference between Holmes and Spinks was much closer than Roy and Lennox.. Plus, you also admitted that was a weak time for HW and Spinks found a good window to become champ. Not to mention, I think a peak Holmes would beat Spinks.

As for Fitz, Corbett was only about 185, the size difference was minimal, Ruiz held a much bigger size difference over Roy.

Tyson??? What the ****, he may have been short, but the man was huge, a natural HW and wrecking machine. Roy was tiny compared to Tyson, Roy started at 154 for christ sakes and was a small LHW by most standards. The CIRCUMSTANCES for all of these fights are ENTIRELY different.. you seem to have a hard time with understanding that though.

Roy dominated Ruiz, it was perfection, his ring generalship was genius, and he had Ruiz hesitant to bull rush him after he got his respect. I am sorry if you can't enjoy a performance like that, I found it anything but boring, especially when Roy was standing with his hands down, against a much bigger man.

You seem like the kind of guy that has to have lots of fire and explosions in movies to enjoy them.