The key to Tysons greatness and cause of his downfall

This post just looks like a veiled attack on Tyson really to be honest, I’m a Tyson realist but I can smell it a mile off. It takes more than pure training and determination to be as good as Tyson was and dominate a division in that way, with fairly good fighters around. I know a ton of fighters with unbelievable determination and work ethic but they never were able to reach the heights he did, why is that?

Tyson isn’t the only fighter in history that worked best with one trainer, it was downhill after that but calling him a pure machine with no independent thought is frankly ridiculous, yes he has the general stuff he did but he also had killer instinct and knew how to finish his man off, he didn’t ask his opponent to stop mid fight so he could report back to Keven with his note book then resume his attack! I would strongly disagree with the opinion that Tyson had no natural talent.

 

The whole point of Pug Specs post is that Tyson didn't have a lot of " natural talent " otherwise he wouldn't have got so badly beaten as he did at just 23 years of age.

His fans claim he lost in Toyko because he didn't train properly, but you can't have it both ways. He either lost because of bad preparation, or because he didn't have the " natural talent " to make up for a lack of discipline.

Which is it?

 

obviously it was preparation,,,

don't ask silly questions Foxy. You know better :nono

**takes out newspaper and hits Foxy on the end of his snout

 

that's fair enough but re the backing up statement what is the point of a short fighter backing up??
The short fighter gets in range and tries to stay there!!!
As well as his head, lateral and feet work tyson also had fast hands once he was in range.
His right hook to the body and uppercut to the head was devastating

 

Nice topic.... but seriously it is very deja vu

No offense intended, but the whole Tyson's "Training vs Talent" issue has become a "chicken vs egg" thing. It has already been discussed to the death in previous topics and it was impossible to reach a general agreement because Tyson is such a polarizing factor.

Anyway, my 2 cents:
-Tyson had SOME amazing natural skills, but he also had SOME serious natural flaws and limitations (size, reach, stamina)

-Without proper training and guidance he was going nowhere, thus people like Cus and Rommney were critical for Tyson's success

-However, even with the best training and handling, Tyson was not for the long term. His style was simply too risky and too dependent on perfect shape/perfect execution. His prime was necessarily short. Sooner than later the system was going to fail.

-Tyson was not properly prepared in Tokyo, but his defeat was not an accident: he crossed paths with Douglas, a good boxer with the right tools and the right game plan to deal with Tyson, well trained, highly motivated, and whom refused to be intimidated.

- Thus Tyons's defeat in Tokyo was not an accident but a natural conclusion. It was something that was bound to happen soon or later.

-Once Douglas exposed Tyson's flaws it was pretty much game over. Tyson still managed to be a good contender, but the magic was gone. Other fighters had now the blueprint to defeat him. Add his reckless life style and you see why Tyson was done at a very early age.

That is my opinion, and that is one of the reasons I consider Tyson fringe ATG at the best. Truly great champions should be able to adapt his game and age gracefully, staying still competitive. Ali did, Louis did ... even grandad Foreman managed to reinvent himself as a smarter, tougher, better boxer. But Tyson, regardless his amazing skills, was still just a one trick pony.

Anyway, I am fed up with all the shoulda, woulda, coulda surrounding Tyson.

People saying that with Cus and Rommney, Tyson's prime would have lasted until he was 30+ have no idea what they are talking about.
People saying that without jailtime Tyson's would have gone undefeated have no idea what they are talking about.
And people saying that Tyson defeats prime Ali, prime Holmes, prime Louis, prime Foreman, etc. are living in lalaland.

 

Some good criticism.

 

Do you go out of your way to try to look stupid duck minge or does it come naturally?

So if you claim his defeat came due to lack of preparation, then his " natural talent " obviously wasn't good enough to beat Douglas was it?

Unlike say Lewis who was under prepared for Vit's but his natural talent won the day.

 

The loss was due to a combination of bad preparation and the way Douglas fought. No, Tyson could not beat Douglas on natural talent alone. He could beat a guy like Carl Williams and Bruno on natural talent, but not Douglas. The point that many have already made on this thread is that he had natural talent, but it was primarily his original team's honing his talents into a fine tuned machine that was largely responsible for his great initial success. Without this guidance and training, he was lost at sea.

As for Lewis, he was losing early to Vitali. The fight never finished its natural conclusion because of the cut. Who knows what would have happened if it went to the late rounds. His "natural talent' certainly didn't save him in the first McCall and especially first Rachmann fight.

 

I will admit it is difficult to defend Tyson concerning his losses, especially after prison. He was basically a different fighter with a different mind-set, but some people don’t want to hear it, and being a different fighter was down to him when it comes down to it. He became a con man post prison and allowed himself to be miss lead. His whole make up appeared totally different pre prison, he was less easily discouraged and had real belief and confidence.

With the Douglas fight many over look that although Tyson was losing badly he was still trying to win, that uppercut in the 8th was planned, he was trying to land it, which shows his mental process was still to try and win, I just think he was so tired and beaten he couldn’t do much else. And yes I do think he was underprepared. Added to that, Douglas was a monster that night, anyone would have had trouble with him. If Douglas was like that his whole career losing to him wouldn’t have been so shameful as it would be against a great fighter, but because of his inconsistency he is seen as some lucky bum. I respect Douglas a lot because I know even if Mike was prime he could possible lose that fight.

I agree that Tyson never had the grit of Ali but my point is he had other "exceptional" attributes that make him more than a fighter that trained hard and got lucky cause he was missing all these great talents. Tyson’s greatness was his effective aggression, which he was a natural at, once that was no longer real or he had the people around that could harness it he was no longer the same mentally which started it all off. Mikes mentality was his ending.

 

As usual you have missed the point of the thread entirely. Pug Spec made the observation that Tyson was not that much of a " natural talent " rather he was honed and programmed by a complete team.

As for your childish opinion of the V.K / Lewis fight, it shows nothing other than your bias against Lewis.

Because even you, aren't stupid enough to " seriously " claim that a stoppage by a cut win is less valid than a KO or a points win.

Fighters punch each other, punches very often cause cuts. It is how the game works.

Get over it.

 

Foxy, you are too biased to discuss this subject with seriously. You make extreme claims from the delusions within your own mind and then waste everybodys time arguing about these extreme claims as if they were real.

Tyson wasn't as prepared and focused for Douglas as he was in his previous championship fights. The amount of training he put in for that fight plus the intensity of the training he put into that fight was called into question by his camp BEFORE the fight took place. Your hatred of Tyson is once again effecting your reality to look at him without confusion.

 

Tyson had natural talent and was a natural fighting man even without cus d methods he would still have been hwc probably not so complete but his power and speed would have carried him through .the problem was fighters like Tyson short hard hitting pressure types do go on long term as they age they slow down and take more punishment which only gets worse so probably regardless of training or dedication Tyson only had a limited peak .