The King of the Giants! Rank the biggest Heavyweights champs against each other.

Aside from Wills yes he did.

 

I am sure you will give me valid reasons why he didn't fight Langford and the other highly rated 'brothers' back during his era, which have been cited many times before in reply to such ignorance. I have read a few accounts of Dempsey refusing to fight black fighters but don't recall the sources or if they were reliable/verified.

 

The Langford fight was on the table in 1916. Dempsey would have been mauled and he knew it. At that time he wasn't even good enough to win the heavyweight title, still a crude brawler fighting for scraps. It wasn't until 1918 that Dempsey was ready for a world title.

The only "brother" that was even seen as good enough to tangle with Dempsey during his title reign was Harry Wills. Dempsey had signed to fight him but due to the money not being there and Rickard not approving the fight didn't happen. Had nothing to do with Dempsey.

 

Are we still doing this Dempsey ducked Harry Wills song and dance?

It was much better suited for 90's boxing documentaries where hey hadn't seen a white HW champ in decades, and automatically assumed that the mistreated black fighters were automatically better. That was often the case but not always.

Look at the footage. Dempsey would've clobbered the guy.

 

1 & 2: Lewis and Wlad (Can't decide)
3. Primo
4. Willard
5. Vitali
6. Bowe

 

I am sure you are well read on the subject so accept Dempsey only avoided Langford when he felt he wasn't ready for him and Wills was down to a money issue. I have read accounts which claimed Dempsey himself actively avoided dangerous opponents but if there is anything to these allegations I will have to leave it to one of your fellow historians to argue the case as I am pretty much clueless.

Anyway, other than Lewis, who was it Bowe avoided that put you off such a talent?

 

Pretty much everyone from the 90s: Morrison, Mercer, McCall, Tyson, Foreman, Moorer, Byrd, Tua, McCall, Ibeabuchi, Briggs, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

I mean, I can understand a few of these fights not happening for one reason or another but for Bowe to not fight ONE top guy of the 1990s outside from Holyfield is inexcusable.

 

Again I will have to add the disclaimer that I am no historian but you list all the fighters of Bowe's era he never fought without stating circumstances outwith his control, Meanwhile for Dempsey there is no mention of the half dozen contenders excepting Wills and Langford, both of which you accept the explanations/excuses given.

I will have to scrutinise the career of Dempseys when I get the time (Bowe's too for that matter, I get his timeline mixed up) because I am not equipped to argue my point which is the suspicion you may be showing a bias towards the old timer. If you (or anyone) have any useful links to credible material explaining either mans fights that never happened they would be much appreciated.

 

Overall h2h, in terms of who would beat the most of the others would be
1VK
2.LL
3.WK
4.Bowe.
With Fury, Wilder and AJ having potential to get on that list.
But plenty of matchup differences on an individual level. LL beat Vitali, and may very well have beat him more often than not. And I think k Wlad would have beat LL more often than not. But Vitali would have the easiest time with the most top contenders, even if Lennox was a bad matchup for him and similar to Lennox for Wlad.

 

All of those guys were out of his control? Every single one? That has to be the worst luck of all time...

You're going to have to be more specific about the "half dozen contenders" that Dempsey ducked. I'll be the first to admit that Dempsey's title run isn't strong at all in fact it is relatively weak however he did fight the top contenders of his time before, after, and during his title run. What holds him back is his inactivity. Gunboat Smith, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard (champ), Bill Brennan (2x), Billy Miske (3x), Luis Firpo, Jack Sharkey, Gene Tunney, Carpentier, Gibbons, Carl Morris. At the time that Dempsey fought them they were at the top of the division.

The thing with Bowe is he didn't fight anybody. All those names I mentioned before and he couldn't fight one of them.

 

I didn't say or mean Bowe was blameless in all those potential fights not materialising. I simply suspected you of holding a double standard but if history supports your claims that Dempsey fought the best among his contemporaries then I was mistaken and your view on Bowe is consistent.
I am aware Dempsey's resume is more complete than Bowe's but the former was a champion for significantly longer while Bowe's star burned bright but briefly. Also, if I may add another dig at Dempsey he wasn't the most active of champions, doesn't this inactivity while champion bother you?

 

What another man does in his boxing career has no effect on me. If you mean does it make me rate him differently my answer is no. As I said already, Dempsey has a relatively weak title run because of his Hollywood phase. That's his fault and it damaged his legacy as in he could have been better. I rate heavyweights based upon h2h ability mostly. To prove h2h ability you have to fight top level opponents repeatedly which Dempsey did and he took 'em out in 3 rds or less.

This is what people don't realize, and unfortunately causes them to rate Dempsey lower than he should be, Dempsey took out the top contenders on his way to the title AND took the champion out in VICIOUS manner. Outside of Meehan and Miske, there weren't ANY close decisions or toss ups. After the Draw with Miske in 1918 up until after he won the title, Dempsey went 14-1 with 13 wins by knockout. The average opponent lasting 2.2 rds. These guys were mostly top contenders along with the CHAMPION.

Bowe simply lacks any quality opponents on his resume outside of Holyfield and maybe Herbie Hide or Bruce Seldon (those 2 are C level at best).

 

I will give you two scenarios’ that are still possible:

1. Joshua becomes the next dominant champion.

2. Joshua gets sparked by Wlad, then loses a comeback faigth against somebody like Chisora, then drinks himself out of contention.

Both of these scenarios, and anything betwixt, is still possible.

Now if you are really into long term forecasts, then this is a guy that you might want to watch:

http://boxrec.com/boxer/787430

 

By "bother you" I meant as a fighter, yes. At the risk of further de-railing this thread what was the deal with Bowe not fighting some of the guys you listed?
Also, do you not rate the better names on Bowe's resume because Tyson or someone else beat them first or feel he fought them at ideal times when not in their primes or are you just not high on those fighters altogether?

I agree with you on Dempsey's fighting style being impressive, the limited amount I have seen is impressively vicious, his popularity is understandable.

 

While not impossible, I am very confident Joshua will be a factor in the division at some level even in the event of a KO loss to Klitschko.

On Dubois, I have heard good things only about him but have not seen more than a clip on youtube. Do you think he has a higher ceiling than AJ?