The Last Stand Of Dr. Steelhammer: Will AJ's Great Leap Forward Be A Bridge Too Far?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Apr 20, 2017.


  1. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    While I've made it no secret that I'm not the biggest fan of Anthony Joshua, that being said, I'm going to do my absolute best to be as objective as possible here. This is my fair and balanced assessment of how I think Wladimir Klitschko vs. Anthony Joshua may play out. I'll add one caveat, this is barring Wladimir coming to the ring an absolute shell of what he once was, a completely shot fighter whose reflexes and power have left him, if Wlad shows up that kind of shot, then AJ in all likelihood will steamroll Dr. Steelhammer. But this is what I see as the most likely scenario and outcome if anything close to the old Klitschko shows up and why.

    Why No Styles Clash For AJ?
    I'll concede AJ has looked like a one man wrecking crew thus far in his career, Hearn keeps stacking 'em up and he keeps knocking 'em down, he rolls over them like a humongous 6'6 bowling ball, but that's to be expected with the level of competition that's been put before him. Who has he faced that's really worth a damn? His first 10 opponents were by the numbers tin cans brought in as sacrificial lambs with a grand total of 92 losses between them. He did what he was supposed to do and massacred them, proving he has around Adrian Granat level power. Then he took a slight step up in class in his next few matches from tin cans to low level journeymen, most looking to earn a quick paycheck with minimal punishment like Zumbano Love, Johnson and Gavern and an obviously chinny looking prospect in Cornish. He took them all out with relative ease using his patented pounce and flurry technique, because it had worked very well in his previous 10 matches.

    Now ask yourself what style did any of his first 14 opponents bring to the table that would adequately prepare him for someone with a problematic style in the future? What has been learned? Absolutely nothing was gained from that bunch other than 14 successive flashy flurry, fighter stunned followed by British Stoppage victories to wow the masses, and convince them they were all looking at the second coming of Mike Tyson. Its the quintessential building of a KO artist prospect, its been done before countless times, AJ's following the same pattern.

    Then came the slight road bump...

    He ran into Dillian Whyte, who had a slightly better chin than all of his previous victims, and AJ thinking he could easily dispose of him like all the rest, rushed in like a fool and ate a massive left hook, that left... left him in all kinds of trouble for about 30 seconds, he was pretty much out on his feet, and if Whyte's arm hadn't blown out, or if Whyte was a more accurate puncher, who knows what could have transpired. This much I can tell you, a more skilled operator wouldn't have let that opportunity pass them by. AJ intelligently decided to get behind his jab to keep Whyte at bay after nearly coming unstuck in the 2nd, thankfully for him he saved himself from an early hiccup, because when push came to shove and he had to rely on his skillset, he's a little more skilled than a rudimentary one armed caveman in Whyte.

    As a postscript to that match, Whyte's power is all but nonexistent in recent performances (which adds yet another question mark to AJ's chin) and skill wise he went life and death with a shot Chisora who Haye savagely disposed of in 5, and Tyson 2 Fast Fury dominated from start to finish, so Whyte's, (who is AJ's best win) level has kind of been exposed.

    Then the opportunity presented itself for AJ to grab a quick paper title off of a thoroughly unproven Martin, who while decent and a southpaw, he leaves himself way too open and didn't have anything close to an Olympic pedigree, while I like Martin and had my fingers crossed and was rooting for him, its not like I wasn't aware that going with him was a ludicrously massive longshot, but hey, Whyte almost landed that lucky punch.:D Regardless Martin clearly showed up for a paycheck as well, or at the very least he knew he'd probably lose because he had no answer for AJ's right hand so took the easy way out.

    Breazeale most people seem to forget should've already had one loss on his record against Kassi, he was outboxed 6-4 to 7-3 and was gifted a win. After that debacle he was being comprehensively outclassed, dropped and basically dominated by Amir Mansour, the same Mansour who lost the first 5 rounds to Washington and was very competitive with the bummish Travis Kauffman, Dominic got lucky landed a big shot and Mansour pulled out with a jaw injury. Its an understatement to say that Breazeale lacks skills. All you have to do to beat Breazeale is to be cautious as hell, stay behind a jab, and don't leave yourself open when he gets desperate and starts swinging for the fences when hurt, and you'll do fine. Eric Molina is chinless and relatively unskilled as well, so neither of those matches presented AJ with any genuine riddles he may come in contact with in future matchups.

    What do all 4 of his big step ups have in common? They're all basically unskilled brawlers who may have a wrinkle in their game here and there that may present some problems to an unseasoned newbie or old past it tin cans, but that's about it. To any decent to slightly above average fighter, they all have zero defense and are there to be punched in the face and stopped, and Anthony Joshua is a very decent fighter.

    One thing is for damn sure, to date, Anthony Joshua has never had to face anything other than a brawler or a featherfisted hack, and why is that? Is Hearn afraid the first time AJ gets in there with a fighter with even a hint of a skillset that AJ might get exposed? Possibly?

    Joshua has never faced a skilled boxer puncher, a skilled evasive southpaw, a pressure fighter who knows how to get inside and work the body, a unorthodox swarmer who throws from unique angles, an opponent with an immaculate jab, an explosive ambush style fighter, a combination puncher, a fleet footed fighter, and most importantly he's never had to face an incredibly heavy handed elusive counter puncher who specializes in spoiling his opponents rhythm.

    But guess who has, a heavy handed incredibly elusive counter puncher who specializes in spoiling his opponents rhythm has.
     
  2. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    This Old Dog Doesn't Need New Tricks
    After a few early bumps in the road, Wlad has seen it all and beaten almost all who came before him, no stylistic riddle or puzzling style was too problematic for him to decode, in fact he won almost every round of every fight he's had in the last 14 years. And the guys he's beaten have all brought far more intangibles to the table than Anthony Joshua, the truth is Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Pulev, Ibragimov, Chambers, Thompson, Jennings, Byrd, Peter and maybe even Brock all have styles that are either equal to or far more complex than Joshua's. There's nothing that Joshua can stylistically present to Wlad, that he hasn't had to deal with before. In fact it wouldn't be a stretch to say that everyone I just mentioned easily go 18-0 through AJ record, and in some cases like with Povetkin and Haye, probably 18-0 18 KO's. Oh and one other guy, Wlad would also go 18-0 18 KO's, and they'd all be seen as pathetic soft touch cherry pick victories.

    While most seem to be under the impression that AJ is some kind of brilliant prodigy that's as skilled as Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield combined, well... they're sadly mistaken. Just what exactly does he do all that well? He's flat footed, he has little to no head movement, he has no left hook, his jab while not pithy, its far from impressive, he's an okay combination puncher, but one has to open themselves up to a counter to land more than a one two, his speed isn't blistering. He's decent at everything but far from great.

    Often times I see posters that imply his skill level has improved greatly since his days as an amateur and that his struggles in the Olympics are a thing of the past. But here's the reality, since turning pro, no one he's been in the ring with are even close to the level of Abdusalamov, Savon, Nistor or Cammerelle, all of whom hold wins or should hold wins over him. Its not that he's graduated to the next level, he hasn't, he's still on the same level, maybe a step or two below, after all, one of his best wins as a pro is a guy who didn't come close to making it to the finals in 2012. His style is more pro friendly, but he hasn't improved nearly as much as people seem to think, he looks great, because we have never actually had to see him be pushed or presented with obstacles, and make no mistake, Wlad will present him with more obstacles than his previous 18 opponents combined.

    Let's start with dismissing the fallacy that Wlad is a shot fighter, he's not, don't get your hopes up. He looked spectacular dispatching the overly eager Pulev, yet a mere 6 months and a year later he looked thoroughly average against Jennings and Fury. So here came the nonstop flow of Wlad is shot, he's lost it, Wlad's power is gone, Wlad can't get his shots off, Wlad is scared to pull the trigger, yadda yadda yadda, while none of that could be further from the truth. Wlad didn't get old overnight, he just ran headlong into two bad styles back to back, one that made him look average, and one that made him lose, its a simple as that. Since hooking up with Steward after being KO'd 2 times, and again once after, Wlad has been a safety first fighter, as in he will not go looking for a KO, if it happens it happens, but he will never again get wild and put himself in harm's way, he learned those early lessons well. Jennings knew that, so he came to survive and not to win, and he did everything in the book to make Wlad look bad, shelling up, spoiling, smothering, holding, lateral movement, but he didn't actually throw enough punches to attempt a win. So if someone wants to survive against Wlad like Haye and Jennings, they have a chance, but if you come to win like Pulev, in all likelihood, you won't survive.

    Wlad couldn't get his punches off against Fury, in fact he rarely let his hands go, but that had nothing to do with his age or because he's "past it", it was because Fury is a constantly retreating counter puncher who was giving Wlad nothing but lateral movement, and flicking out his incredibly long jab to keep Wlad at bay. Wlad isn't fluid and graceful with the ability to let his hands go while coming forward like Golovkin and Kovalev, he needs to set his feet to let his hands go, and Fury wasn't having any of that was he? Fury controlled the distance and range brilliantly, presenting Wlad with a riddle he hadn't encountered, a slick, fleet footed, fast, awkward, huge 6'9 counter puncher with excellent defense, which AJ is not.

    But do you know who else is a slick, fleet footed, fast, awkward, huge 6'6 counter puncher with excellent defense, Wladimir Klitschko. Fury out Wladded Wlad, that is all.

    Wlad is almost as defensively sound as Mayweather and Ward, only its far more subtle, think about it, how often do you see people land flush on Wlad? its not very often, not even Fury, he protects that glass chin exceptionally well with his shoulder, he rolls with or blocks almost everything. As far as the body goes, most are unwilling to commit to a body attack out of fear of eating a counter, he also utilizes the grab and hold, then maul and wrestle technique of Ward, while not pretty or nearly as good as Ward's, its still effective as hell, and wears opponents down.

    Wlad also controls the distance better than any other HW including Fury, aided immeasurably by his hard piston like jab, most are too terrified of getting nailed flush by it to aggressively attempt to get past it. Add to that one of Wlad most overlooked talents is his astonishingly good parrying skills, he's utilizes almost a Muay Thai like stance and hand play constantly tapping his opponents gloves waiting for them to strike, and when they do, his hands are there and waiting, and he calmly taps them to the side deflecting the shot that usually wizzes past his shoulder, while his opponent ends up eating a flush right cross upside their cranium, he also uses his parrying to split his opponents guard allowing him to get inside with relative ease, he taps the straight right up and over the shoulder, taps the jab to the side and boom right down the middle, his opponents almost never see it coming.

    As with all one dimensional power punchers, a skilled fighter can easily negate or flat out neutralize that one advantage, and leave their opponent a sitting duck for everything they throw, and I think we can all agree that Wlad is old hat at this, and is the far more skilled of the two. Like McGregor said, precision beats power, well Wlad is probably more powerful and a hell of a lot more precise and timing beats speed, unfortunately for AJ, Wlad has great timing, and maybe even the edge in speed.

    AJ has never had to deal with a harder puncher with immaculate timing, great defense, who's skilled at grappling, parrying with excellent control of distance who has a better straight right than he does, and a horrific left hook, that he is open to that's way better than his. Wlad is chinny, but the trick is to land on that chin, its easier said than done, AJ is chinny, and isn't all that hard to land on for unskilled brawlers, so its not hard to imagine one of the most accurate punchers in recent memory landing on it flush repeatedly.

    There's a possibility that not only will Wlad beat AJ by KO, but make it look Pulev like easy, and even if his power and speed have left him, there's always Grabimir, which presents another set of problems for AJ if it goes past 7. Joshua still has a hell of a lot to learn and there's a massive possibility that Hearn has made the biggest mistake of his life here by overestimating Wlad's level of shotness and not fully comprehending why he's looked so poor in recent outings, and may end up being taught a brutal lesson on levels. This isn't Airich or Bakhtov we're talking about here. This is the greatest Heavyweight Champion of the modern era with a skillset fighters far more accomplished on every level than Joshua haven't been able to unlock, so why does he think AJ can?

    Either this will be the coming out party of all coming out parties for the young lion, and I may be as wrong as humanly possible, or as I suspect, it will be Wlad's brilliant Last Hurrah and the Old Lion goes out in style, still the King Of The Jungle. While all indications may point in one directions, skills pay the bills, and Wlad by a mile is still the most skilled Heavyweight of the last 15 years. AJ has a hell of a grizzled old mountain to climb here, and I have a feeling that Mount Everest will claim another victim.
     
  3. KiwiMan

    KiwiMan Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  4. ellerbe

    ellerbe Loyal Member Full Member

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    I think this goes 12. Most times when 2 elite fighters match up it goes 12. Sure there are Hagler/Hearns, and Hearns/Duran type fights that happen. But in today's boxing almost every elite fight has ended up 12 rounds. Cuadras/Chocolatito, Garcia/Thurman, Jacobs/GGG(I was one of the few that picked Jacobs, and said I'd give GGG massive credit if he won, not if he got a gift, the fight played out how I expected), Kovalev/Ward, Fury/Wlad, May/Pac, Porter/Thurman, Crawford/Postol, Loma/GRJ, Canelo/Cott, the list goes on and on. I can't even think of a fight between 2 elite fighters that has ended in a stoppage since 2015.

    Now HW are obviously a different story, the punches have far more impact so I wouldn't be that surprised if either got stopped, since both are devastating punchers. I think AJ wins this on points. Your second post was interesting though, a lot of your points definitely ran through my head when assessing this fight. In the beginning of this year I thought AJ easy, but when the fight came closer those points you made did pop up in my head, making me rethink a little. I'm still going with AJ though.
     
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  5. pincai

    pincai The Indonesian Thin Man Full Member

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    Impressive breakdown CST80.
    I like both fighters and usually if that's the case, I'll root for the underdog, and that's Wladimir.
    Since you have covered most grounds, I'm just gonna add that I believe both camps believe that they have caught the other side at the perfect time. Joshua sees Wlad as an old lion ready to conquered, and beating Wlad does give him the recognition as the current and future king.
    Wlad sees Joshua as a young pup and his experience will eventually drown him. This will also gives him the redemption he craves after losing and failing to secure a rematch with Fury.
    I guess next weekend we'll find out who is correct.
     
  6. Jeremy Kyle

    Jeremy Kyle Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It depends which version of Wlad shows up, Will it be a new determined to let his hands go wlad or will AJ make him look old? or will he simply just look old like Bhop in his last fight. Nobody know's
     
  7. nellybc

    nellybc Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good stuff @CST80

    I'm still on the joshua bandwagon over here though...

    Then part of me wonders isn't this like Price vs Thompson all over again but on a lesser scale ??
     
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  8. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Dot, dot, dot... Full Member

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    A couple of observations:

    1. Agree about Joshua's lack of diversity in opponents
    2. Was badly hurt by Whyte whose power can be questioned in subsequent fights but Joshua walked into that left and other opponents have been more circumspect fighting Whyte since (except Chisora) and he has been dealing with a shoulder which needed an operation so we could argue his power may have diminished.

    _____________________

    Joshua has an odd style really and one that doesn't match well for him with Wlad. I'd call him a counter-punching pressure fighter. He stands just outside 'range' but as his opponent naturally retreats he follows them and constantly closes the gap, plodding forward, ideally taking them to the ropes. It's based on intimidation. But he rarely commits until they throw, and backs his speed and athleticism to beat them to the punch once they do. If you're a basic fighter like Charles Martin you'll fall for the pull counter right, get up and fall for the same trick 20 seconds later. Levels.

    Even then his combinations are rudimentary versions of the classic one-two. Damn, he even told Wlad in The Gloves Are Off that he plans to keep it simple and shadow boxed his moves while sitting across the table from him. An odd thing to do, like a pupil trying to impress his teacher. But beating Wlad - doing all the above while eating hard jabs - cannot be that simple... unless he's a busted flush.

    And here's my worry. We seen it all before. A great champion on the comeback trail announcing themselves to be 'better than ever'. Wlad isn't as good as he was, but he's bright enough to know this unlike Hatton and Haye who spring to mind right now as boxers fooling themselves into thinking they were progressing not regressing.

    Wlad will know better I hope and not try to do things his body will no longer allow and follow a very simple jab/leaning back/force a reset, rinse and repeat philosophy in the first half of the fight (not grab, Joshua is stronger). I've said before he needs to stretch this fight out into the latter rounds - weird really that the older fighter's trump card is taking it long, but I think it may well be.

    Nealy all my boxing logic tells me Wlad wins, certainly my heart takes me in this direction but the 18-months out, the 41st birthday celebrated, the two poor performances prior to the hiatus, the fact he sees Joshua as heir apparent and, therefore, an honourable passing of the torch to his chosen successor (a little mental concession right there), fighting away from Germany - his comfort zone, the little hints of denial over his decline... sadly after much consideration and changing of mind, I think this fight and its circumstances might be too much.
     
  9. NakiFan

    NakiFan Proud Kiwi Guy Full Member

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    Left hook wins it. Wlad will put AJ into a shell and tire him. WK by UD.
     
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  10. madballster

    madballster Loyal Member Full Member

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    Its hard to disagree with you when you break down so nicely. My gut feeling still thinks AJ has got a slight edge in this due to stamina and youth. If Wlad wins this it would be an epic win for him. If AJ loses it will be interesting to see how he comes back from this.
     
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  11. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Wlad has no defensive whatsoever. Its why he illegally holds every 10 seconds against second rate opposition.

    Mayweather and Ward are proven defensive masters against Elite level opposition. Wlad is more comparable to John Ruiz than those guys.

    Everything else is good.

    AJ possibly may have a CEJ moment where he freezes and doesn't loosen up till a few rounds in and by then it could be too late. Its a huge ask of a guy with so little experience to deliver under such massive pressure.
    The fight is intriguing and i can't wait for it. I won't be surprised in the least to see Wlad win by stoppage.
     
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  12. WrightStuff

    WrightStuff Member Full Member

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    I enjoyed your analysis, and you're right Joshua hasn't yet been exposed to a variety of different styles to know how to deal with them.

    But lets flip this the other way...When has Wlad ever fought anybody with the same combination of attributes that Joshua brings to the table ?
    Fast hands, great power, physically the same size so cannot be bullied, same reach, and aggressive combination puncher.

    The blueprint was fixed once Wlad had been bashed around a few times and Manny Steward was appointed:
    a zero risk style based on using all Wlads physical attributes to a) keep the fight at range and b) tie the opponent up and lean when your own punch misses.
    Most of Wlads wins are simply just by being the bigger guy and dominating with the jab in a poor quality heavyweight division. A jab I don't even think is that good any more, its a heavy lumbering jab that he paws away with, and can get away with due to the reach advantage.
    Uses it as a measuring stick to range the right hand. I think calling Wlad slick and fleet footed is a bit of a stretch tbh !

    No way is Wlad going to change now having ingrained that style for a decade. He already proved in the Fury fight, if there was any doubt, that he was not prepared to take a risk to win. With the fight slipping away and being outboxed he just kept to the same old script. He couldn't turn it into a war.
    Fighters tend to revert to type when put under pressure. If Joshua wins the jab and starts throwing combinations then I can see Wlad just retreating into his shell and doing very little, just staying out of trouble, not winning the rounds but hoping to land one big equaliser.

    But there are big question marks on the Joshua side. Stamina and chin are somewhat unknowns.
    His movement looked better in the Molina and Breazeale fight but he is still quite flat footed. Awfully apparent in the Whyte fight. Seems to be incorporating more feints and guard movement now.
    If Wlad can put Joshua on his back foot then we have no idea how he will react fighting in that stance as he's never had to before.

    But I have to pick Joshua to win overall. A young improving fighter vs an ageing fighter in decline.
     
  13. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Was looking forward to your breakdown, and while I disagree with some of the AJ critiques, it was a good read and good points for how Wlad could should win. A couple of points.

    1 Even if AJ loses, it was still the right and in fact brilliant move for him and hearn to try. You have to go for the brass ring, this was AJs opportunity to claim an atg win. Plus vast money and publicity. Worst case scenario is he loses, it's seen as him being moved along to quickly, and is still in a position to make a TON of money in rebuilding his career and still have a great possibility of eventually becoming a dominant champ.

    2. His opposition is not as bad as indicated. He was actually moved along quite quickly in comparison to Wilder and even Wlad and Vitali, both in time and number of fights. He hasn't beaten a concencus top 10 hw, but has beaten a few fringe ones or solid top 20 hws. His comp level is around what Vitali's was going into Lewis (although I do think if Vit had more experience that result would have been different), and probably better than Ali's was against Liston, Rocky's against Louis, and Fury's against Wlad.

    3. While AJ has never faced anyone remotely like Wlad, Wlad has never really faced anyone quite like AJ. Combo of equal size to Wlad, huge punching power, and Olympic skill. Nobody really fits that bill among Wlad victims, probably McCline and Thompson come closest, which proves my point. Plus, Wlad will be the underdog for only the second time of his career.

    Add in the fact that Wlad may very well be shot at 41 with 1.5 years of inactivity, and I'm 50/50 on how this goes.
     
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  14. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    He's had 18 fights. Lewis was Vitali's 34th fight and he would be the last good opponent Vitali ever faced.
    Vitali was as primed and experienced as one can get in that fight.
     
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  15. Bustajay

    Bustajay Feel the Steel/Balls Deep Full Member

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    The biggest factors agains AJ are his past levels of competition however he has been way more active. I don't expect too many fireworks but I do expect Wlad to drag him deep and perhaps win by a UD or catch him late and win by TKO mid 10th.
     
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