The Liston Of The Patterson Fights...

Your opinion of Liston sure knows no bounds, unless you are talking about Patterson. Liston sure doesn't belong anywhere near Lyle.

 

Oh please. Liston has to be one of the most overrated heavyweight champions in history. I know he's undergoing a revival of sorts lately, but let's be real here.

So he fought four rounds with a broken jaw against against 180 lb. Marty Marshall. Big deal.

He was a bully who, when someone pushed back harder, lost or quit. Tyson at least went out on his shield. Liston never did.

 

Well, I tend to think "schooled by Clay" is a bit of an embellishment, that makes the event sound better than it was. It also gives Liston an "excuse" for his quitting, where there is none. And obviously it's become part of the Ali legend, though at the time most people viewed it with scepticism or contempt.

But, yes, Clay DID beat Liston relatively soon after Liston had crushed Patterson.
And in Liston's double crushing of Patterson he demonstrated himself as a very formidable "destroyer" if not a "Colossus" as you put it.

 

I agree.
I mean, we've ALL done that before.
Any man worthy of the name has fought on with a broken jaw. Maybe some of these pussies who post on these forums have never actually realized how EASY fighting while injured is, for guys like us. They probably think broken jaws hurt or something.

Frankly, I think Liston should have broken his jaw BEFORE every fight, just to prove how tough he was. He should have put broken glass inside his boots too.
The fact that he didn't do so, IN A WEAK ERA, suggest he was scared.

 

I just shake my head when people use the broken jaw as an example of Sonny's "heart." Tons of sportspersons have soldiered on with a debilitating injury. It does after all, come with the territory.

Ruddock fought on with a broken jaw AND a punctured eardrum against one of the most vicious hitters of all time (Tyson). Pinklon Thomas fought on with a dislocated shoulder against Tyson. Jess Willard - his list of injuries against another huge hitter (Dempsey) is a mile long -broken jaw, five missing teeth, smashed nose, the lot.
Ali fought 10 rounds against a legitimate heavyweight with a broken jaw.
I could go on and on...but you get the idea.

If Liston was such a gritty, determined warrior, why the quit job in the Ali fight? Even if the shoulder injury was legitimate, why not gamely battle on? Maybe he could not have won, but he could have tried. Any true champion worth their salt would have.

Archie Moore, battered and bleeding against Marciano and with no hope of winning replied with the classic quote "I too am a champion, and I'll go down fighting." when asked by the ref if he wanted to continue.

Jims Braddock threatened never again to speak to his manager if he stopped the fight against Joe Louis. He too, had no hope of winning, but he was damned if he would quit.

These guys weren't injured, but they, like Liston, had no hope of winning. The difference was they could dish it out and also take it, but Liston only ever fancied dishing it out.

Imagine if Tyson lost against Everitt "Bigfoot" Martin with a broken jaw. Would he get the sympathy vote like Liston does against Marshall? Like hell.

 

Okay, seriously then, if you want me to be serious ....

I dont think anyone is saying Liston was more courageous than any of those guys, and most would stop short of saying he showed immense levels of courage against any top-flight fighters.

He quit against Clay almost inexplicably.

But the point is made that the Clay fights were not necessarily typical behaviour for him. There seems to be a gulf between a man who quits with a little cut and a mouse under the eye in after a relatively tame six rounds and a guy who fights most of a fight with a broken jaw. And that's not surprising, people are different on different days, different situations evoke varying responses at different times.

No one should judge TYSON'S "heart" on the bite fight alone, or on the McBride fight.

No one should judge Roberto Duran's "heart" simply on the "No Mas" incident.

And likewise, Liston cant simply be labelled a pure coward/bully because of what he did against Clay.

By all means mark him down for the quit job in the all-time stakes, but dont assume he cant win a tough fight "because he's a quitter".

(And ALL fighters who have won fights with broken jaws, champions and journeyman, amateurs and professionals alike, deserve a bit of respect. All of them are courageous.)

 

Your opinion of Roberto Duran must be pretty low?

 

Well JT, it took him years to shake that one off. No kidding.
Duran proved himself over the whole of his career though. For me, the two Ali fights have forever damaged Liston's credibility.

Of course I respect anyone who gets into the ring - it takes a special type of balls. I just don't see the fire-breathing monster in Liston many keep raving about.
I just don't.

 

It just wasn't the fights with Patterson that can be evaluated.

It was the intense training that Liston did partake in during that time.
1962 and 1963.

A perfect fighting machine.

Nearly everyone thought that Floyd Patterson was a better and more complete fighter
than a young Cassius Clay.
So of course, Liston took Clay lightly in the first go-around.

Look at Listons training regimen back then, absolutely brutal.
The 3-months up at The Pines in 1962, the guy could have walked through walls
and punched holes in concrete blocks.
Despite still nipping at the bottle.

 

i see more fighters beating tyson than liston.

 

Liston's training regime for rematch with Ali:

warm up

about 6 rounds of sparring with 3 fighters

and

Through with his "shock absorbers" (as Pirolli calls them), Liston worked three rounds on the heavy bag and three rounds on the light one. He skipped rope for three rounds, took about a dozen whacks in the stomach from a medicine ball thrown by Reddish (who was usually puffing at the end) and finished his workout with two rounds of sit-ups. Then he rolled on the floor briefly, and stood on his head. Finally King helped him on with his white robe, wrapped his head in a towel, and Liston trudged off to the sanctity of his back room. The choreography never changed. In three months Liston was trimmed down from 235 to 214. "We gonna take 'im in at 210 or 212," said Reddish.

And 5 miles of road work every day

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1076556/index.htm#ixzz19dPyfI4G

I wonder how his earlier trainings looked like

 

he was better in 58s-59s yes. the only 2 men whon would beat a prime tyson before of 5 rounds, are liston 59 and foreman 73-74

 

patterson was a great fighter but he had a weak chin,patterson would outbox ron until the round 5 when lyle would catch and destroy patterson. and lyle would give the hell to liston, lyle was a very strong guy,veru hard puncher, and he did his pro debut in his 30s, we never saw a prime lyle, he did put foreman down more of once and foreman had better chin than liston for sure.lyle could take a great shot. lyle would do this fight much more interesting than cleveland williams did

 

Agreed.