"The Made Up Prime Ali"

Because if I take that FOTC Ali and match him against the fighters he fought over the course of that 12 month period (Jones, Cooper, and Liston), I'd favor that Ali to not get floored against Cooper, not drop rounds vs Jones, and beat Liston more widely.

I personally don't believe such a light switch change from what we saw from Jones and Cooper into an unbeatable myth (and in boxing terms, 3 fights in 11 months is a very short time span) is possible without a great deal of romanticizing.

 

If Ali hadn't fought Liston, you could argue that 60's Ali was never tested.
But he went in there with a legend who was at the top of his career, and dethroned him as a 22 year old in beautiful fashion.

He had a lot of courage in that fight. How many people would go into a fresh round against a bear like Liston with their eyes bothering them? He also showed that same level of courage in the 70's. But he showed a certain level of skills, speed, and magic that you didn't see after his first retirement.

Against Liston, at one point Liston throws these long jabs, and Ali moves back, slipping the jabs by moving his head back, and at the same time he was yelling at Liston.

It's one thing to dominate an amateur at the gym in that fashion. It's another thing to talk while slipping punches against a great fighter like Liston. We never saw a specimen in the ring as fine as Ali vs Liston 1, imo. He was perfect.

 

Not the case at all with Liston.
His footwork and moves weren't for veneer during that fight. They were for function.

 

Silly. Ali's prime was pre exile or more likely DURING his exile. You do not stop doing something for 4 years and come back better at it than you were before especially when those lost years were the physical prime years for an athlete. We probably never saw Ali at his potential best. Ali at his best did not need to lay on ropes or use really crazy off beat non classic boxing strategies to win fights such as the ropeadope or "the mirage". These were used because he could no longer box as he did pre exile.

 

All well and good if you think that A) those fights were on the level and B) Liston was prepared and had anything left in the tank. Liston never again made the Ring's Annual Top Ten at heavyweight. I think that speaks volumes.

 

Hey may have had the experience to prevent the Cooper knockdown.
But he didn't have the athleticism to beat Liston by a wider margin.

As fast as Ali was, Listons punches were coming very close, and Ali was dodging those punches by a hair.

Ali was wired for the Liston fight in a different way than he was against Jones and Folley. Ali was supremely focused, scared, and sharp against Liston. It was the culmination of all his abilities being tested to their greatest extents.

Kinda like Louis vs. Schmeling II.

 

Spot on.

 

A good constructive boring predictable response from a meat head.
Clueless is apt.

 

Was Lomachenko vs Walters on the level?
Didn't Klitschko quit due to a shoulder injury? Doesn't mean the fight wasn't on the level.

I doubt losing in their rematch the way he did helped him in his rankings. He did have a pretty decent comeback run though.

All you really have to do is watch the footage. Liston is going all out. Throwing haymakers from the start with aggression. Ali moves with the fear of life in his eyes, smoothly dodging killer punches with grace and lighting like speed.

If you watch the fight, look at the facial expressions, feel the atmosphere of the moment, see the punches landing, and the athleticism and ability of both fighters, it speaks way louder than the small counter points you bring up.

 

Deflection.

Not good enough to budge the likes of Hubert Hilton out of the rankings.

I believe an old, tired, undertrained Liston came out in the first fight hoping to end it soon and was not prepared or able to take it to the deep waters. Liston, never light on his feet or lightning fast, who was God-knows how old and partied hard, presented the perfect foil to Clay's physical tools. It also presented good visuals, which seems to be a premium around here. It was an important win, which is not the same as saying it was a win over a great opponent.

In the end, I do not feel that beating a tired old Liston is equal to beating a Frazier or Foreman, or that Clay/Ali's run pre-exile is as impressive as his run post-exile.

 

Lot of fighters had their prime interrupted by mitigating factors. Sugar Ray Leonard detached retina , Joe Louis , Sugar Ray Robinson and other champs during WW2 . Some because they went to jail Tony Ayala , Mike Tyson and Ike Ibeabuchi and some because of death Salvador Sanchez and others because of promoters Andre Ward , David Tua. I know i haven't answered the question just saying Ali is not the only boxer.

 

Ok, so what made the fight not on the level?

A 19-10 guy with no notable wins isn't better to me than Liston who was 16-1 in his comeback and beat Wepner in his last fight.

Liston was fresh off his dominating wins over Patterson. He was a physical specimen that people gathered in large numbers just to watch train. Everyone who knew anything about boxing was in awe of him.

"Old, tired" does him a huge disservice. If you were describing Liston to someone who had never heard of him, you would be misleading that person. He was champion despite his age, and if you watch him fight, he certainly wasn't tired.

To me, you don't present a good argument here. You are simply replacing negative adjectives in front of positive ones, when really you should be using positive ones.

Liston isn't above criticism. But he is way above the image you give him.

Also, great visuals is generally a by product of a great performance.

 

I don't think it is as simple as saying the 1970s fighters were better. It's getting very, very cliche to say that now. Yes the 1970s were exciting but George Foreman was very very raw, Frazier was most likely half the man After TFOTC, Norton over all probably no better than say Eddie Machen. I think a slower Ali made these guys look better.

In any era where a lot of great fighters names appear in the same rankings of any particular year it's rare that all are on the same end of their respective primes. That is what often separates the champions from very good contenders.. the career timing.

At any one time there can be no more than three championship level or champion potential fighters in a top ten. The rest of the ten will be "has Beens" or unproven guys heading for a loss. They peak at the wrong end of a top ten because that is their level and destiny. It's so much
Nonsense to suggest a failure in one era would dominate another era.

We might not know it at the time but of the three "champion level" guys around at any one time always it is the one that Is better placed in his own career who goes on to dominate. Even Ali second time around, nobody knew going into it that he was better prepared to beat George. But he was. They both beat the same two guys but the rounds Ali put in were better prep than the one way traffic George got. And he was the kid!

 

There is no myth. The legendary "prime" Muhammad Ali was for real and more magnificent than the fable Targaryan Dragons. From May of 1965 to March of 1967, Muhammad Ali compiled 9 defenses of the world title over several respectable to very good opponents including Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger and Ernie Terrell. Some of those nine defenses were fought internationally and saw Ali enter the ring sometimes within several weeks of each appearance.. Most importantly, he was a fully matured 25 years old and in his physical prime and no longer the Skittish kid who got decked by cooper or troubled by jones. Nor was he the slower moving flatter foot fighter who struggled mightily with Norton as the author tried to paint him as during this time period... Ali's pinnacle was short lived due to his exile. But from 1965-1967 and through those nine defenses, he was about as spectacular as any heavyweight champion could ever be and more so than probably 99.99% of them.

 

Well said