The Madrigal Of The Krusher: His Fistic Syncopated Polyphonic Symphony Of Destruction.

Manfred · Jun 21, 2016

Grooveongreg said: ↑

He outsmarted the ultimate spoiler in Hopkins so hes got a good chance he could do the same with ward. Another spoiler.
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He never outsmarted Hopkins. He just did what he was supposed to do. He was much younger, much stronger and hit much harder. Plus he has boxing skills. He introduced Hopkins to all of that and there was nothing Hopkins could do about it.

Manfred · Jun 21, 2016

QuadrupleG said: ↑

First of all, there is no size difference. Ward was a huge SMW. Now he is finally facing people of his own size (Smith and Brand don't count).

Second: he can definitely drop Kovalev catching him off balance like some others did. I doubt he can hurt Kova though.
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Who was Ward huge over at 168? Except Abraham and everybody was taller than him.

conraddobler · Jun 21, 2016

GK BOX said: ↑

This Alexander Brand fight is a bad look for Ward. There's several top 15 to top 25 ranked LHWs he could have fought. Instead he picks an inactive 168 fighter.
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bad look ? He's facing Kovalev in November. Of what conceivable significance is the 'look' that this warm-up fight makes three months before the most significant fight in the last decade you utter moron?

conraddobler · Jun 21, 2016

QuadrupleG said: ↑

First of all, there is no size difference. Ward was a huge SMW. Now he is finally facing people of his own size (Smith and Brand don't count).

Second: he can definitely drop Kovalev catching him off balance like some others did. I doubt he can hurt Kova though.
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Huge? We was completely average sized.

SOUTHERMOST · Jun 21, 2016

CST80 said: ↑

I'm clearly very biased towards Sergey Kovalev in regards to his upcoming match against Andre Ward, but instead of the usual bellicosity I spew, I'm going to attempt to actually explain why I think Kovalev not only KO's Ward, but possibly outboxes him in route to said KO. Many parallels can be made with Music and Boxing, both are heavily reliant on a rhythm, and without the rhythm, they will not flow as smoothly as they should. We are all hardwired to have an internalized pattern of movement that we rely upon, think about it, you never think about how to walk... you just do, and usually the same amount of space between steps with little variation, however if an obstacle presents itself to you, you can usually make a quick adjustment, and make a stutter step or a small leap to avoid it. Even though we may make that adjustment it tends to throw us off kilter for a second or two, and then we resume our regular rhythm after we've averted whatever was in our way. But if presented with a larger obstacle, like a hole or an unexpected drop off, sometimes we're incapable of finding our rhythm again and go completely off balance and fall on our ass.

Most but not all Musicians and Boxers function in a similar manner, they have the same rhythm throughout a song or match, which is their styles, most pop artists get stuck in a rut and do the same thing over and over and over, which is usually why they end up being one hit wonders, they never change their rhythm, never attempting anything complex, maybe because they just aren't adept or intelligent enough to figure out how, in essence... they're limited. Boxers function in a similar manner, they have a style that suits them and they are usually incapable of varying their set style all that much because its become a crutch, a habit, their rhythm, their beat... jab, jab, straight right never changes. Sometimes they can tweak something here and there and make subtle improvements, but it usually takes a colossal failure for them to realize what they did wrong the first time to correct it the second go around. These fighters are almost incapable of on the fly improvisation, and they can't wrap their heads around why the repetitive pattern that always worked for them in the past has failed them. It's usually because they've come face to face with a.... dun... dun... dun... Rhythm Breaker.:yikes

Andre Ward is a master Rhythm Breaker, while in the ring he studies his opponents timing, their punch selection, their footwork, their head movement, their twitch reflexes, their microexpressions or facial tells, their overall rhythm... and breaks it. He does this with a variety of techniques, obviously he's a counter puncher, so he catches them when they're coming in and yes he headbutts and clinches a lot which greatly contributes to his spoilerific style, but he also times his opponents to perfection, and completely offsets their rhythm usually by simply beating them to the punch, aided immeasurably by his natural speed advatage. He catches them midway through their combination or right before an attempt to set up their combinations, which are usually somewhat predictable, either with a straight right or his left hook catching them totally off guard, therefore momentarily discombobulating them and they have to reset, and the same pattern happens repeatedly. He sometimes follows up his punches by holding, and while in hold he works their body and head with fast little hooks, all the while usually holding their lead arm down, and keeping his head on the side he's holding down. Add to that his immaculate ability to slip, block and parry shots with his excellent head movement, and at times dipping his whole body to the left or right to avoid an incoming shot, and excellent control of range. His opponents are never able to get into a rhythm from the gets go because he's so adept at offsetting it. Therefore their entire gameplan goes out the windows, because most of the time they only have one style to rely upon to begin with.

I'll preface this with... I'm a huge fan of Mikkel Kessler and Carl Froch, not a big Arthur Abraham guy, and not that fond of Chad Dawson. While they all seem like big wins, and they are, they were not altogether hard for Ward to dismantle, because they have a set rhythm that Ward could get the beat of and ruin with the ease.

I'll start with The Cobra, Carl is fairly simplistic in terms of skillset, it's relatively easy to process his tempo, he shoots out 2 or 3 left jabs and swings wildly with his right sometimes its a hook, sometimes its a cross, sometimes its looping, and if that fails, he barrels through your punches and pounds you like a drum to the body causing you to drop your hands which opens up your head for him to finish you. All Ward had to do it neutralize his jab, slip the incoming rights and tie him up when he attempts his bumrushes. Easy as pie. Yet Ward was still gassing in the 12th and Froch had his best round when he realized the only way to beat Ward was to throw out the rule book and swing for the fences, of course it was too little too late to have success with that strategy.

Kessler who he faced before Froch, you would think he'd have a harder time with than anyone else, since Mikkel is technically superior to AA and Carl, yet he made fairly easy work of him as well... but Why? Kessler is brilliant at cutting off the ring, he rarely just follows his opponents around in a circle, but he usually starts slow, and is at times overly cautious, looking for the right moment to let his punches go. And when he finally does the punches he lets fly are fairly predictable, like Froch he jabs 2 or 3 times and then attempts to land the right cross, Ward took full advantage of this early, Kessler who did a great job at walking Ward down, but was as usual somewhat apprehensive early on, was tagged incessantly by Ward's straight right, left hook, jab, upjab and jabs to the body. He never let poor Mikkel establish his rhythm, so it was broken from the get go. He beat him to the punch from start to finish, completely taking Kessler play away, add in the holding and headbutting, Kessler never had a chance.

As far as Abraham goes, he had a little more difficulty figuring Arthur out, because with his high guard up as usual, Arthur's jab was intermittent, and he followed Ward around for the first 3 or 4 rounds, with no distinct patterns to pick up on, a jab here and there and an occasional leaping wild right hook. Ward found his range and figured him out by round 4, beat him to the punch repeatedly, jabbed him to the body, while Abraham followed. Abraham isn't very difficult outbox, Froch put on a masterclass against him. He doesn't have the hardest style to decode.

Dawson while a good fighter, I never considered him extraordinary, he's pretty basic, he sets up everything with his quick jab and follows it up with a straight left, his speed and southpaw stance gave many more basic fighters issues, but he doesn't have a unique rhythm, so add in the fact that he was drained, through no fault of Ward, Dawson agreed to the terms, so if he was weakened, it was his fault, but it clearly affected his performance. He was slow sluggish and his reflexes were off, and everytime he unfurled his jab it opened him up for a left hook from Ward. He didn't even need to break his rhythm, he was too slow and lethargic and was dominated from start to stoppage.

All of these great opponents have one thing in common, they have an identifiable rhythm, and if you can identify a rhythm you can break it. They are exceptional talents, but their skillsets offer little in the way of innovation and while they can make subtle adjustments here and there, nothing so great that could serve to shift the momentum of the fight in the least.

However of all the amazing opponents Andre Ward faced, his hardest fight to date didn't come at the hands of any of the stellar talents I just mentioned, it was against........yes...wild caveman Sako Bika.:blood

I had Ward winning the Bika match 115-113 it was the closest to a draw he's ever had, some even scored it a draw. Surely Bika has none of the class and skill and fundamentals of those gifted fighters, so why it that this Neanderthal performed far more impressively than those 4 against the SOG? It's because as great as they are, they all perform like top notch rhythm guitarists, while they are amazing at what they do, its predictable. Whereas Bika performs in the ring like a freestyle improvisational jazz musician, he never follows a linear path, he makes it up as he goes along, busting out syncopated notes and swing notes left and right, he is utter chaos personified. Because he wings it, he has no identifiable rhythm to break. Therefore Ward had an incredibly hard time getting his timing down, what to anticipate and how to deflect it, or what to counter with, occasionally he'd find the rhythm, and Bika would play a sour note that Ward wasn't expecting and catch him off guard again. Ward is damn lucky he made the few adjustments he made otherwise there'd still be a lot of people saying Bika was his Castillo, he'd have never lived it down, it would be seen as a robbery, because Ward would have never lost since the scorecards for that match were clearly filled out ahead of time.
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Don't bet your house in this fight.

CST80 · Jun 21, 2016

GK BOX said: ↑

This Alexander Brand fight is a bad look for Ward. There's several top 15 to top 25 ranked LHWs he could have fought. Instead he picks an inactive 168 fighter.
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Yet ironically this cherry pick may prove far more difficult than Ward thinks it'll be, Brand is actually a terrible style match up for Ward, he's almost like a hybrid of Sam Soliman and Sakio Bika.

Pablo_p · Jun 21, 2016

conraddobler said: ↑

Huge? We was completely average sized.
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Yeah but he out muscled all them so called bigger guys or at least dudes his size

All that rhythm **** is for idiots

To me who ever establishes there jab will win this fight

They both have great jabs & jab to the body very well & often

To me kov foot movement is good but he is often off balance & his feet get tangled up a lot

Ward only weakness is his power but he is strong enough & sturdy enough to deal with kov strength & power as long as he doesnt get hit with anything really solid he will be good

Rhythm is only established with a great jab without it there is no rhythm

The jab is the key

Oxygene2 · Jun 21, 2016

CST80 said: ↑

I'm clearly very biased towards Sergey Kovalev in regards to his upcoming match against Andre Ward, but instead of the usual bellicosity I spew, I'm going to attempt to actually explain why I think Kovalev not only KO's Ward, but possibly outboxes him in route to said KO. Many parallels can be made with Music and Boxing, both are heavily reliant on a rhythm, and without the rhythm,
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I stopped reading here because I needed to go spew.

Just kidding, great posts (other than this rubbish).

Pablo_p · Jun 21, 2016

And the only thing bika was competitive at was physicality other than that ward made him miss alot & out scored him big in the punches landed & the percentages.

Plus ward game plan was stupid & obvious after what he did to green.

Bika & his team game planned strictly for that type of fight.

If ward fought him like he fought Rodriguez he would've made it alot easier

Ward never fights the same he has many styles & plans of attack.

Jeff M · Jun 21, 2016

Your love for sucking Russian **** has blinded you once again.

gmurphy · Jun 21, 2016

CST80 said: ↑

Yet ironically this cherry pick may prove far more difficult than Ward thinks it'll be, Brand is actually a terrible style match up for Ward, he's almost like a hybrid of Sam Soliman and Sakio Bika.
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So he's such a terrible boxer he is almost good?

CST80 · Jun 22, 2016

gmurphy said: ↑

So he's such a terrible boxer he is almost good?
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No he's decent he has a win over Badou Jack as a pro actually, unfortunately the official judges didn't see it the way I saw it, or how the commentators saw it either.

He does nothing to prepare Ward for Kovalev, but he may end up making Ward look bad or average for stretches in the match, like Bika did. And he might provide a fight delaying cut due to a headbutt as well.atsch

CST80 · Jun 22, 2016

Jeff M said: ↑

Your love for sucking Russian **** has blinded you once again.
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You had to drag this classy thread (for me) into the mud with your xenophobic despicable hatred for Russians didn't you? What kind of ****ing liberal are you anyway? Liberals are supposed to like all nationalities last time I checked, but you seem to prefer some nationalities over others.

KiwiMan · Jun 22, 2016

CST80 said: ↑

You had to drag this classy thread (for me) into the mud with your xenophobic despicable hatred for Russians didn't you? What kind of ****ing liberal are you anyway? Liberals are supposed to like all nationalities last time I checked, but you seem to prefer some nationalities over others.
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Agreed, it has been a classy thread indeed, better than 99% of threads on this forum.

The OP is very logically and clearly explained, with excellent examples and interesting ****ogies which were fascinating. I'm actually a musician and music historian too so found that part of greatest interest. Accusations of pro-Russian bias here are completely rubbish!!!

As an aside, I would also like to note that the problem is the hatred for other nationalities. The key to avoiding xenophobia is not hating people because of their nationality, as was sadly demonstrated by Jeff M.

It is not wrong to identify more with some nationalities than others. I tend to support (the few) Kiwi fighters and Kiwi sportspeople but I don't think that makes me a xenophobe. I'm guessing you actually agree with me here but just (understandably) weren't 100% clear in the wording. Also, at least where I come from, it's not only liberals who should respect all nationalities. I actually lean conservative but try to preserve a healthy respect for the many other cultures around.

Mendoza · Jun 22, 2016

N17 said: ↑

Superb read, quality stuff :good

I urge you all to take 5 minutes and read that in full.
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CST80 stuff is better than 95% of the boxing writers. :good

I see the fight being won or lost on Ward's ability to make Kovalev's jab a non-factor. If he can do it and counter, he'll likely win barring a bomb landed from Kovalev. If he can't take away the jab Kovalev will destroy him.

It's a fantastic fight with two pound for pound fighter in their primes.

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