The Marquez Brothers are Something Special

I'm slightly unlucky here because I've never involved myself in an avatar bet either...and had completely forgotten about it after the fight. What's even worse is I knew Mayweather was going to win and would tell that to anyone who would listen but still went in for a Mosley victory. A bit of fun at the time.

I've never involved myself in the "ducking" debate though, not once whilst I've been a member on this site. I find it mostly to be a load of bollocks, with promoters, money, and everything else being high priority with matchmaking, I find it hard to believe any of these fighters are scared of another fighter at this level. You were clearly insinuating that Marco was scared of fighting someone who had lost to Norwood and who HBO wanted nothing to do with...and that boggled my mind.

If you want to discuss both men's resumes, their skill-sets, and how the stack up according to facts rather than ducking theories, count me in Divac, that's why I'm here, but don't bring up all the bollocks about Marquez not getting the fights. Him losing to Norwood before his career really got underway didn't help, and when he finally made the jump to world class he got knocked down three times and then decided to go ****ing fight in Indonesia. Can't go round blaming poor Marquez's slow start to the likes of Barrera and Morales.

We'll start the debate off with me once again referencing your finest hour. "Barrera doesn't have a right hand".

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRF_3VeI-LQ[/ame]

I would clearly outline the time code of every instance he demonstrates a beautifully thrown right hand which often resulted in a knockdown...but there's plenty of times it happens...just enjoy Divac...you neutral you! I decided not to include the right hand that flattened Marquez.

 

You can rant and rave all you want Addie, you dont determine the caliber of a fighers right hand by picking and chosing specific highlights.
......you determine just how good a fighters right hand is by how he's consistently able to use that hand over the course of a full fight.

Now I've seen plenty of both JMM and MAB, and without question Marquez consistently is working both his hands while MAB mainly relies on his left........you can sit there and foolishly deny the facts, but it is'nt going to change the truth.

I believe we've already discussed this fact at lenghth before and I see you're still harboring anomosity over it.

All we have to do is look at the performances of the two against an elite like opponent to see where both fighters are as far as two fisted versatility.

........against Manny Pacquiao, MAB was able to be neutralized by simply Pac just focusing on taking away MAB's left hand. Pac was able to use his own right hand to play defense and block MAB's lefts, knowing that the right hands were not coming and when they were, they were not consistently hard enough to put a dent on him.

The opposite was true against JMM, who was able to use his right hand to smashmouth Pacquiao with it

You dont show a specific set of highlights and determine it as proof your fighter can throw a good right hand.
.....you name fights against caliber opposition that shows the fighter consistently using that hand to great effect to neutralized that caliber foe.



......and as far as resume's are concerned.....you take away MAB's fights with Erik Morales ( of which neither MAB or Morales let JMM in on that loop) and we basically have like resumes.
......I'll go even as far as saying Marquez" is better, as he's neither been thoroughly and clearly outboxed or KTFO in his own weight division as MAB has on more than one occasion.


Lets face it here. Morales' and MAB's resume's only create the illusion that they're better than Marquez' only because they fought eachother 3 times.
In many instances and not just MAB and Barrera, they create a safety net of making only fights against eachother, they dont allow room to fight other great fighters within their weight division......and this was clearly the case with not letting JMM in the loop.

Thank God a fighter the caliber of Manny Pacquiao came along who had the balls to fight all comers........or JMM would likely have ended his career without a big fight on his resume.

 

great fighters.

 

The exact words out of your mouth were that Marco Antonio Barrera was a one handed fighter. That highlight was created by me and I only picked out his best knockouts and combination's, if I was to specifically sought out moments of him demonstrating a good right hand it would have been 10 minutes long and probably as part of a 2-3 part series. Does it hold any weight when discussing Barrera's right hand? Infinitely more os than just hearing Divac, who isn't a fan of Barrera, telling us otherwise. Seeing is believing.

Likewise, and whereas I concede that Juan Manuel Marquez does have a better more consistent right hand than Marco Antonio Barrera, you just use this as a means to discredit my favorite fighter. Marquez is right handed, Barrera is a lefty. What does this tell you? It tells you that Barrera had a vastly superior left hand to Marquez, and Marquez had a superior right hand. I don't expect even the most passionate and narrow minded of Dinamita fans to deny this. They both had their specific weapons.

Animosity? Not at all, I've brought the subject up. That's why we're here Divac, to discuss these sort of topics. We're Boxing fans, there's no animosity between us. I think you're a good poster, you're just a little bitter about how Marquez's career would often get derailed with poor management and yet you decide to point the blame at his Mexican contemporaries.

That's rubbish.

Manny Pacquiao is not going to have a great deal of trouble with a primarily left handed fighter. Operative word being primarily, Barrera was a two handed fighter who came up against a Buzz saw after his training hadn't gone particularly well, and I don't believe was expecting the kind of intense action that welcomed him the first time.

Is this fight indicative of how much better Marquez is as a fighter than Barrera? Not at all, it just shows that styles make fights and Juan Manuel Marquez's power straight right hand and uppercuts were going to find their target on Manny much easier than Barrera's jab and left hook.

Erik Morales did the same to Pacquiao...because he was a better fighter than Barrera? No, because like Marquez, he also had the right hand there for him all night, and he had the benefit of the doubt of seeing what Manny could do. Barrera was the first to come up against the Filipino and no one knew he was as good as he was.

Of course you do. You produce video evidence, which as I said earlier, is infinitely more compelling than your agenda driven nonsense.

Juan Manuel Marquez has a better win column than both Barrera and Morales? Give me a break. Joel Casamayor was on his last legs, and we've got to see just how good Juan Diaz really is when he's losing to the likes of Nate Campbell and Paulie Malignaggi. Baby Bull almost knocked Marquez's head clean off, and although I give full credit to your boy, it doesn't stand as a signature win or an elite win by any stretch of the imagination.

Holds wins over a very faded Marco Antonio Barrera who knocked him down with a right cross, and then he has the amazing victories over Robbie Peden, Manuel Medina, Rocky Jaurez, and the courageous and strong-willed Derrick Gainer.

So we have....

Marquez: Barrera (past prime), Casamayor (past prime), Juan Diaz, Robbie Peden, Rocky Jaurez, Manuel Medina, and Derrick Gainer.

Barrera: Erik Morales (2), Naseem Hamed, Kennedy Mckinney, Jesse Benevides (past prime), Daniel Jiminez, Johnny Tapia (past prime), Robbie Peden

You'll notice that Barrera's signature wins came against undefeated P4P rated opposition at the time, whereas Casamayor had just gone and life death with Katsidis, Barrera life and death with Jaurez, and Juan Diaz not long lost to Nate Campbell and would go on to lose to Malignaggi shortly after.

Yeah, fighting an ATG Hall of famer three times during his prime was really a safety net. The fact those two fought each other as many times as they did was not to keep JMM in the shadows fighting and losing to Norwood and John, but because it's what the Sport needed. Two great Mexican fighters going at it during their physical peak. Would it have been nice to have seen Marquez in on that? Absolutely, I wished he had, but he didn't, and as a result those two faced and beat better opposition than Marquez did. Only his most deluded of fans would deny this....that of course, being Divac.

Of course, when Marquez was given his big opportunity he got knocked down three times and decided not to take a rematch in favor of fighting in Indonesia...where he would lose to the painfully underwhelming Chris John.

 

Go back and look at my first post in this thread that got you started with me Addie.........It was meant as a friendly ribbing between me and you, as we've had our runnin's in the past, but I had believed we had gotten past that and come to at least be respectful of one another........
If you look at that post, you'll see there is a winking emoticon there to show I'm just teasing......but as always has been the case when it comes to MAB, you take these friendly ribbing gestures to personally.


When we had argued MAB's right hand in the past, I had come to a middle ground with you and admitted that I had exaggerated my post for effect......that in reality MAB's right hand was OK, but could be called rather weak only in comparing it to a fighter that had a damn good one like JMM's.

You are still harboring that anomosity over my statement months ago in which I admitted to you personallly I had exaggerated for effect..........you wont let it go Addie.

......and you know what? MAB is a damn good fighter. A great fighter imo even. You would rather discuss resumes while I'd rather discuss that MAB ducked JMM.
.....now I say he ducked him, not that he was afraid of him. You're the one who took it to mean that MAB was afraid. Fighters duck other fighters for different reasons, in many cases it has nothing to do with being afraid.

The reason why I'd prefer not to discuss resumes is that everytime that happens, we end up putting down the resume of the other fighter, when he damn well does'nt deserve to be put down in that way.

Whether consciously or subconsciously, in trying to stand up for MAB, you're going well over the top to put down JMM.......even going as far as this......

You know damn well thats going overboard and you just said that just for the sake of defending MAB's resume.
Most in the boxing community saw JMM winning both those fights you're putting him down for.

You've painted yourself in this forum as someone who has great respect for most of these fighters who step into the ring, its time you really look at the man in the mirror before you go on pointing hte finger at others when it comes to disrespecting.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont believe you really meant what you said Addie.


I'm going to leave it at that Addie, because if we were to continue to debate the specifics of resumes, it would only turn to one thing, an ugly mess of exaggerations and putting down of the fighters being discussed.


I think we both know that JMM for whatever reason it was, I've made my reasons known clearly, but for whatever reason one might think it was, we as boxing fans missed out on seeing a true master at his craft fight other greats when they were all prime.

.....and if you dont think so, thats ok.......but I for one believe that at the very least we at least had a good sized glimpse on how truly special a fighter JMM was, maybe still is, in his fights with Pacquiao, MAB, Diaz, Casa.......because though you're saying the latter three was past prime, how conveniently you leave out that so was Marquez himself.

 

I'm respectful of you as a poster, and I appreciate that you've been the bigger man here and tried stopped the back and forth with that last post.

Juan Manuel Marquez is a terrific fighter, after his first fight with Manny Pacquiao, I considered myself a fan of him. The courage and technical ability he showed to fight himself back into contest despite being knocked down three times is to be admired.

With that said, for the longest time, you've used every opportunity you could to discredit his Mexican contemporaries. For example. Why is Barrera having an inferior right hand to Marquez even a talking point in your mind? You've not once acknowledged to me that Barrera had a superior left hand.

I don't believe Juan Manuel Marquez, for all of the great fighters he has defeated and the heart he has often displayed, has defeated the same caliber of opposition as both Morales and Barrera have. I actually consider this to be less subjective than one might think, so why would that be any different to you telling anyone who will listen that Marquez has a superior right hand?

It's endless. You say Marquez has a better right hand, I say Barrera has a better left hand, you say Marquez was more competitive with Pacquiao, I say on the grand scale, Barrera defeated better quality of opposition.

I'm not a last word freak, but perhaps we can just end this now. You're quick to call me a nut-hugger of Marco Antonio Barrera, he's my favorite fighter of all time, but I'm in denial about his standing in history. If Marquez goes on to win a title at 140lbs and notch up some great wins in the near future, I'll be willing to accept that Marquez has perhaps surpassed him...but he isn't there yet. I don't say that as a Barrera fan or a Marquez detractor, I just say it as a Boxing fan.

 

so when juanma lopez fights rafael marquez he'll be fighting a great special boxer who will come to fight and win.. that has a lot of heart and passion.. he will come in great shape

:hat

 

Again, on the highlighted, you're still harboring ill feelings over our initial discussions on that right hand months way back.......

Have I or have I not mentioned I'd make a concious effort to refrain from using MAB as an example in situations which may discredit him?

I have great respect for MAB the fighter, but he's certainly not one of my favorites.
Still I've made that concious effort to refrain from too much criticism of him.

......and I've certainly not discredited Marquez' Mexican contemporaries. I dont know where you're getting that from.
.......for instance, there are people in this forum that would like to see a Marquez-Morales fight so that the Mini-fab four rivalry comes full circle.
I've been one here to say I'd rather not see that because Morales has not shown he can compete with fighters on the level of Marquez at this point.

The fight did'nt happen when it should have, and as a Marquez fan I'm not going to come in here and claim that a victory over Morales as it stands right now would prove who was the better prime fighter.

You would think that as a Marquez fan, I'd be in favor of a Morales matchup.......but because of my respect for the greatness that was Morales, i'd prefer that fight not be made.
.........now how is that disrespecting JMM's Mexican contemporaries?
Even though prime for prime I believe Marquez takes Morales, I dont want to see this version of Morales get toyed around with by anyone, and that includes JMM.




Loosen up Addie, and try not to read too much into some things that are said tongue and cheek.

 

...Barrera has a better left hand than Marquez...doesn't he, Divac?

 

For fear of starting a flame war, I'm not going to answer that Addie.

Answer this for yourself Addie......Do you rate Marquez left better than you do MAB's right?

In hoping not to blow your top, I will say that Marquez is equally as good with both his left and right hand.
I've seen most of both of their careers Addie, and Marquez does not rely more on one hand than the other.

I hope that does'nt make you mad, but its the honest truth.

 

atsch Goodbye Divac.

 

I suppose it's a bit of compliment really...Marco Antonio Barrera has been beating the best fighters of his generation with one hand, whereas Marquez couldn't even do that with two.

 

Have I missed the part where you and Divac ask each other how much weight you can lift and someone's asked someone else if they've ever laced up a pair of gloves? Because, frankly, I didn't have the focus to read through the 3,000+ word posts. I mostly just read the ones that were two short paragraphs at the maximum. I don't want to miss any of the good stuff.

 

dude your videos are ****ing gay

your undefeated cause youve never boxed another person

all talk, no walk

 

Like who Addie!

I say the mini-fab four JMM, Morales, Pacquiao are the best he's ever faced.

I say the best you can say is that he went even up with Morales, and lost to both Marquez and Pacquiao pretty convincingly.

I hold MAB's win over McKinney in high esteem even though McKinney is not an ATG, though in my mind he was an exellent fighter, and that fight was a War.

Next to the mini-fab four, you have another non-ATG in Junior Jones who MAB got KTFO against and then in a fight where Marco was tentative, he was outboxed by Junior.

Hamed was a nice win as well, in my estimation however though a nice win, Hamed falls well short of being within the best of his generation.

Does'nt diminish MAB's accomplishment, he beat other exellent fighters along the way, but I think you may just be exaggerating just a tad that MAB actually "beat" the best fighters of his generation.
















Oh my, what have I got myself into with Addie?:blood












I"ll reason with you Addie, MAB fought the best fighters of his generation, but did'nt exactly beat all of them.
Actually in my honest opinion, he only really won the first Morales fight.
I'll add however that I do consider MAB to be a great fighter and belongs in the ring with any fighter of his generation.


Just my honest opinion in regards to MAB.