The Marvin Hart, Jack Johnson and James Jeffries Triangle

Jeffries was typically compared with the US President when they would show theater audiences pictures of famous men at the time.

Tommy Burns actions didn't hold the same power of symbolism as Jeffries.

 

:think

A good post and an honest one.In 1903, the first head of steam was blowing Johnson on to Jeffries radar. I would imagine Jeff , in later years ,would have considered how things may have turned out, had he defended against the still improving Johnson.

 

You saved me a post!

 

None of this convinces me that Jeff couldn't have fought Johnson in Australia.

After all, it was the other side of the world in an era when plane travel that far would have been impossible.

 

Some say he took the first 10 rds,he was unmarked at the end whereas Hart was a bloody mess.Why Johnson did not put the verdict beyond all doubt ,I have no idea? Maybe he had started to gas when Hart kept taking his shots and coming back for more? Quien Sabe?

 

The worlds hwt champion was in a different class above the lower weights. A black hwt champion would indicate that the black man was the physical superior to every white man. This was too much to handle for those who ruled the sport, and those that ruled the nation, during the early 20th century. There was great pressure from the vast majority to NOT let any black man gain this opportunity. A growing but small minority was pushing for the alternative. Burns was told and warned not to fight Johnson. As a Canadian he eventually ignored these warnings. Jeffries felt the pressure both ways but the pressure not to succumb to the minority push for a fight vs Johnson was far greater. Just as blacks were not given opportunity at that time in most aspects of white American culture they were barred from even getting a chance at winning the most prized trophy in all of sport.

 

Again disagree. Fighters fight. They don't decide who they fight. Sullivan, Corbett felt no real pressure to fight any black opponent since in their time those that pushed for black intergration were few and far between. It was a one sided argument.

As time went by more had a progressive outlook within the American culture. So there was a level of pressure from some of the press and public for Jeffries to fight Johnson. However the other side of the coin is there was FAR more pressure NOT to make this fight occur. The scales in no way had tipped by 1905. Jeffries stuck to what was EXPECTED of ALL white American hwt champions. You and I would have done the same......society....the American culture...dictated that it was not to be. Fast forward 20 years and society STILL was not ready for it to occur. The scales still had not tipped. Wills did not get his title shot because of it.

Jeffries faced a backlash of monumental proportions if he were to give a black man a chance at his title let alone lose. Heavy duty cultural implications going on here so very far removed from merely Jeffries deciding not to fight a black man. Most of the entire American culture was against the fight occurring and Jeffries knew this as fact.

 

To me it seems painfully clear. Johnson by most accounts would've won a pretty easy UD had the fight been scored today. Hart was a bloody mess and Johnson looked like he was out for a stroll in the park. The news reports seem to make it clear that whenever Johnson tried, he dominated the action. I think the most likely scenario is that Johnson thought he was ahead, should've been ahead, and did what he did sometimes.. Coast to victory. Only the ref wasn't having it this time.

 

Perry

lots of sweeping statements being made--

"A black hwt champion would indicate that the black man was the physical superior to every white man"

This might have bothered some racists, but one might ask if the white man is the physical superior, why avoid fighting black men? Also, within a decade of Jeffries the consensus (at least among Americans) greatest athlete was Jim Thorpe, a Native American. It is also rather weird that a 135 lber (Joe Gans) can be superior to any similar-sized white man and be popular, but at heavyweight it is really a problem.

"Jeffries stuck to what was expected of all white American hwt champions."

There had only been two--Sullivan and Corbett. And there is a quote from Sullivan in Adam Pollack's bio of Jeff in which Sullivan takes the position that Jeff should not draw the color line as champion as he had not drawn it on the way up. Sullivan's position seems to have been against all mixed matches, but if a man like Jeff earlier fought mixed matches, he had no right to draw the color line to protect the championship.

"fast forward twenty years and society still was not ready for it to occur."

Nice of you to speak for "society" as if it is a monolith, but within a decade of Dempsey the color line fell with no big deal made of it. Hell, society was split right down the middle about whether ANY boxing match at all should ever occur.

"the entire American culture was against the fight occurring"

Again you are speaking for the entire American culture. In fact, the leading boxing publication, The Police Gazette, lobbied for the fight, as did The Ring Magazine for the Dempsey-Wills fight in the 1920's.

What about the "entire American culture"--well, William Lewis won All-American honors at Harvard in 1892, playing against whites. When Fritz Pollard played in the Rose Bowl in 1916, it didn't lead to riots or the cancellation of future Rose Bowls. John Taylor won a gold medal representing the USA in 1908. DaHart Hubbard would win a gold medal in 1924. Blacks competing with whites didn't seem to always cause that much of a problem.

My take is that a Jeffries defense against Johnson probably could have happened in 1904 and could have been staged in California or Nevada. I can't see Teddy Roosevelt intervening to try to stop it--it just seems out of character for him--so it would be a state matter.

The problem with your whole position is that you see the status quo as unchangeable when no one challenged it at all. When it was later challenged, it quickly fell. Things had changed. But perhaps things would have changed earlier if Jeffries had tried to change them.

My problem with Jeffries is not only did he go with the racist crowd, but he often put himself at its head with his prejudiced comments.

 

Wrong. Society evolved better accepting the black race over time. It's still evolving. In Jeffries time a small minority wanted black integration by Dempseys time as the progressive movement grew that minority was still very much a minority. Society was not ready for the potential of a black to be called all mans superior and in the end this is why Jeffries did not fight Johnson in 1905 and why Wills did not fight Dempsey in the 1920's. Don't take the simpleton approach.

 

Predominantly the American nation was racist at that time. A minority took the progressive stand. Jeffries took a majority position.

 

"simpleton"

Perhaps. We all have our weaknesses.

But I noticed that historically, when the Dyer Anti-Lynching Bill was introduced in the Congress in 1921, it overwhelmingly passed the House of Representatives. It died in the Senate due to a Southern filibuster. Still, just bringing the issue up had an impact, and even in the South there were plenty of folks who came forward in support of a more decent law and order approach.

No one would disagree that the USA was racist, but you lump everyone with the most extreme racists. Not everyone was under a hood and leading lynch parties. After all the North did fight a Civil War to end slavery. There were amendments to the Constitution guaranteeing rights to all citizens. Even if not always honored, how did they ever pass? if everyone was nothing but a racist?

What would have happened is Jeff had said he was going to fight Johnson because Johnson was his best opponent and they were only two boxers, not definitive representatives of either race? What would have happened if his comments were designed to tamp down racial strains? We can't really know because he went in the exact opposite direction.

 

good stuff on this thread he grant.

Jeffries had to have remorse over passing on Jack the first time around and going for the comeback instead. Pretty much blew up in his face the worst way possible, which comes off as a hefty dose of karma paid back with interest.