The Marvin Hart, Jack Johnson and James Jeffries Triangle

As early as 1903 the Police Gazette got on to Jeffries case about defending his title against Johnson.

 

You are equating lynching of blacks vs not considering them or wanting them considered equal or superior to whites. Huge difference. I am sure the majority did not want Blacks murdered. The majority at that time also did not want nor did they consider Blacks a white mans equivalent.

Jeffries nor Dempsey management lived in a vacuum. They had to live in American society and live with the reprocussions of going against Ametican norms if they chose to do so. They nor any other management team would have made any different decision during those times. American culture did not want these bouts to occur and guess what.....they did not occur. Boxing commissions mirrored the norms of the times as they were political bodies in their very nature. As with everything else once a culture is ready for change, change occurs. In the question of the Johnson and Wills time period the culture was not ready for change.

 

It is a mistake to compare the world of prizefighting with respectable sports.

 

One thing is certain.

If Jeffries could have beaten Johnson at his best, he made a catastrophic miscalculation by not taking the fight.

He could even have matched his prime self, against a pre prime but still credible version of Johnson, say after he beat Denver Ed Martin.

Could Jeffries have forced through such a fight?

The answer is that he probably could, but he would have been taking the game into uncharted territory.

To truly judge him you have to look back from his position, ignoring everything that happened later.

 

Nothing is certain. Jeffries if he had somehow gotten through everything it took to make the fight happen would then need to deal with the reprocussions if he had lost. His career would have been over and he would have been ostracized by the vast majority of his fellow citizens.

 

What is there to say? Hart was not viewed as favorable as the past champions were. However, he out worked a prime Jack Johnson in a high-stakes fight that was billed as an elimination to meet Jeffries. Johnson's own corner urged him to pick up the action, but he did very little in the second half, possibly because Hart hurt him previously.

Jeffries said he'd fight Hart if there was demand for it. There was not. So he stayed retired. If there was a Reno like purse ( $100,000.00 ) to meet the winner of Hart vs Johnson, one can speculate if Jeffries would continue, even if Johnson had won.

What a fighter says and does can quickly change when the money is high enough for him. We know that. in 1905, Jeffries would have beaten Johnson. Even Mcvey has admitted that.

Jeffries had uneven statements about the color line. He considered Johnson in print as a possible option post-Munroe and he did fight black contender Hank Griffin as champion in a 4 round affair, the same Griffin who defeated Johnson in a 12-month span. Had Griffin somehow won, he's the next lineal champion. So Jeffries technically broke the color line among heavyweights.

As for Jeffries the man, he enjoyed the company of Bob Armstrong and seemed to have no ill will outside of talking about the color line to the African Americans of the time.

 

There are no reports of Hart hurting Johnson in their fight,Hart finished the fight badly marked up, Johnson unmarked,source "Jack Johnson The Rise" .Adam Pollack.
Jeffries was a racist who made many racist statements for which he needed no prompting ,he said several times that should Johnson beat Hart he would ignore his challenge,saying," I will not take a chance on losing my title to a black man, when there are no further white challengers to fight , I shall retire". In1905 Johnson beats Jeffries .The Police Gazette was lobbying for the match as early as 1903 .Jeffries said ,"Johnson may be good enough to lick the Japanese Navy but as long as I am champion I will not fight him". Adam Pollack has well and truly nailed Jeffries colours to the mast in his biographies of both Jeffries and Johnson.
Armstrong was just a paid employee ,there is footage of Jeffries bouncing a medicine ball off of his head, nice guy,don't make out like they were friends.Jeffries intimate company was fellow racists like Sharkey,Berger,and Corbett.
No heavyweight champion made more public statements reiterating that he would never defend against a black man than Jeffries.Even Sullivan, hardly a liberal on matters of race, said he found Jeffries attitude inexcusable because he had fought blacks before becoming champion.
Stop with the bull sh*t!
It convinces no one!

 

If he REALLY has a Greb fight on film, he can sell it, dump the old historians and BUY some new historian friends.

 

He says he has"historian friends ,"who have it, but then he says he has seen Langford v Hague,and that the Fitzsimmons v Ruhlin fight was filmed ,[it wasn't]. I would take any of his statements with a large amount of what Lot's Wife was turned into.

 

"You are equating lynching"

No. I am just saying that things change because some people take a stand to change them.

You seen to think change in society is sort of like the wind. It comes and goes with folks having no role in it. No. Change in society comes about because some, usually courageous leaders, want that change and work for it.

Jeffries was not only not such a leader, he in fact took his stand with the racial reactionaries. He was a great fighter, but his racism is also part of his equation.

Who really knows what would have happened if Jeffries, or Dempsey, had gone out of their way to make fights with a top black contender happen because it was really all a matter of who was the best fighter, not which is the "superior" race to extreme racists who think along those lines.

 

Mendoza says: What is there to say? Hart was not viewed as favorable as the past champions were. However, he out worked a prime Jack Johnson in a high-stakes fight that was billed as an elimination to meet Jeffries. Johnson's own corner urged him to pick up the action, but he did very little in the second half, possibly because Hart hurt him previously.

Jeffries said he'd fight Hart if there was demand for it. There was not. So he stayed retired. If there was a Reno like purse ( $100,000.00 ) to meet the winner of Hart vs Johnson, one can speculate if Jeffries would continue, even if Johnson had won.

What a fighter says and does can quickly change when the money is high enough for him. We know that. in 1905, Jeffries would have beaten Johnson. Even Mcvey has admitted that.

Jeffries had uneven statements about the color line. He considered Johnson in print as a possible option post-Munroe and he did fight black contender Hank Griffin as champion in a 4 round affair, the same Griffin who defeated Johnson in a 12-month span. Had Griffin somehow won, he's the next lineal champion. So Jeffries technically broke the color line among heavyweights.

As for Jeffries the man, he enjoyed the company of Bob Armstrong and seemed to have no ill will outside of talking about the color line to the African Americans of the time.

Mcvey, Mcvey, Mcvey,


Jeffries offered Johnson a private fight, Johnson refused.

No comments on Jeffries giving African American Griffin a fight as champion? Gee why am I not surprised!:hi:

I have read reports that said Hart hurt Johnson with body shots. I can look for it.

In the mean time this report says he hurt Johnson in the 11th round. Ready and stop the bigotry!

There are no reports of Hart hurting Johnson in their fight you say? Good lord you are ignorant.

John L Sullivan should not talk about fighting black fighters.

As for using the color line to avoid talented black fighters, Johnson > Jeffries by a good margin.

Any more facts needed here?

 

Just to clarify, a known film collector and seller says he one. Some historians have seen it and believe it to be Greb vs. Panama Joe Gans.

I have not seen it. The film is in Minnesota. I was offered to get a screening at a future date. Back to the thread...

 

Ed is being very silly. Political leaders who try to alter society generally do not come from the boxing world. It's all about money and not doing those things that will effect ones livelihood and in this case life in general. Society and the American culture changed over a very long period and it's still elvolving to this day regarding racial matters. Back at the turn of the 20th century views concerning blacks were VERY different than they are today. Most did not want blacks infiltrating into what was perceived as white culture. There was great fear that letting blacks show they were indeed white mans equal, in this case holding a title that proves they were the physical measure of all white men, would eventually lead to the destruction of white America. If you don't know this take several courses in US history.

 

Mike Jacobs and Joe Louis came from the boxing world.

I am not talking about changing all of society. I am talking about changing a sport, and by extension, all sports. But even the longest journey starts with a single step.

It is certainly a minority opinion that Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson had no impact on American society, or that earlier Joe Louis or Jesse Owens did not.

"If you don't know this take several courses in US history."

It was my major when I earned my first degree. After military service I switched my interest into health care.

"destruction of white America"

But not everyone thinks this way or thought that way, and you have given no proof that those who did were the majority.

"Most did not want blacks infiltrating into what was perceived as white culture."

Which explains the popularity of ragtime and jazz?

Frankly, I think it impossible to know how "most" felt.

 

Jeffries never offered Johnson a title shot, why would Johnson fight Jeffries for f*ck all? The Griffin affair was a 4 rounds exhibition with Griffin getting a cash prize for lasting the distance in a NO DECISION BOUT.ie IT was not a title fight.
I've read multiple ringside reports of the Johnson v Hart fight.

You are a liar, a racist ,a coward ,a bet welsher, and an all -round a*sehole who wouldn't recognize a fact if he tripped over it. .Have a nice night.